1 has ltcf 1 doesn't

[chesire17201]

Had this question put to me today and wasn't sure of the answer, so if anyone knows.... this is hypothetical right now, and will write in first person to make reading easier.....

I have my pa ltcf, a friend does not, we are going to the mall and he wants to know if my permit will cover his pistol in my car(his unloaded) while we are both in the vehicle, then when we get to said mall he can open carry since he doesn't have a permit. then obviously when we leave he unloads before we get in car again.

My thinking is no, my permit would not cover his pistol in my vehicle, even though his would be unloaded. Per 6106 of the ufa.


6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree

[vetter3006]

I would think that if your friend has his firearm concealed then he has a problem, I would just not conceal the firearm,and open carry all the way.
I would not take my word 100% but I would look into this completely with PA firearms laws.

[XD45]

if the firearm is unloaded and you follow PA gun transport laws whats the problem? its no different then if you where going to the range. if he OC out of the car, and when he gets in the car put the clip in a bag and the gun in the case or something along those lines... get to your destination he loads up and you go upon your business.. i'm not a lawyer but thats my take on it

[MarcS]

I don't see the problem. As long as the gun is not on his person in the car, say, in your possession, he is lending you the firearm and you can legally carry it. I used to do that on road trips before i turned 21. Put it in my buddies glove box and ride shotgun.

[chesire17201]

see the issue i have with this is in pa's transport laws, the way i read them is you need a ltcf to even have the gun in the vehicle (regardless of concealed or open,) unless you are heading to a shooting range, practice, gun show, place of repair etc...
section 6106 states all the exemptions and just general taking the gun for a ride and then open carrying isn't on there. am i missing something in reading the statutes?

[GunLawyer001]

Here's the deal: Without a PA LTCF (or a recognized out-of-state permit), carrying a firearm (loaded or unloaded) in a vehicle is a criminal offense.

There are limited exceptions, for direct travel from the place you bought it, for travel directly to and from a target range, while moving residences, etc. If you don't fall squarely within one of the listed exceptions, you commit a crime. There is NO general rule allowing you to travel with it in a vehicle if it's unloaded and separate from the ammo, unless you are within an exception.

Here's the argument you'd have to use in the scenario described: The non-LTCF guy can lend his firearm to someone with a current PA LTCF. The LTCF-holder can transport it in a vehicle. He can return it when they get to where they're going.

In practice, it's not an argument that will persuade your average cop that it's all kosher, but it should prevent a conviction, as long as the firearm is under the custody & control of the LTCF-holder while driving (it can't be on the hip of the non-LTCF guy, for example.) As for the wisdom of open carry in a shopping mall, under the current political climate I'd avoid it, but then again somebody has to push the envelope.

[Rule10b5]

Originally Posted by MarcS

I don't see the problem. As long as the gun is not on his person in the car, say, in your possession, he is lending you the firearm and you can legally carry it. I used to do that on road trips before i turned 21. Put it in my buddies glove box and ride shotgun.

You are correct.

[TaePo]

I found an interesting exception though. One I had missed before and this is slightly off the subject at hand, too...

A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

Listed below are exceptions as outlined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 6106. (2) (b) Exceptions:


13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the person's name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse or parent owning the firearm.

Would this mean I can 'leave' a firearm in my auto for my wife's defense as long as she does not conceal carry it? (This would go for parent, spouse or children apparently.)

And per the paragraph before, what is the punishment for a first degree misdemeanor? It seems to state a lessor violation if you would have qualified for a permit anyway; that you just did not do it properly.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by TaePo

I found an interesting exception though. One I had missed before and this is slightly off the subject at hand, too...

A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

Listed below are exceptions as outlined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 6106. (2) (b) Exceptions:


13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the person's name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse or parent owning the firearm.

Would this mean I can 'leave' a firearm in my auto for my wife's defense as long as she does not conceal carry it? (This would go for parent, spouse or children apparently.)

And per the paragraph before, what is the punishment for a first degree misdemeanor? It seems to state a lessor violation if you would have qualified for a permit anyway; that you just did not do it properly.

A first degree misdemeanor means that you have left your firearms-owning days behind you, since it's punishable by up to 5 years in prison.
There's an ambiguity in the statute you quoted, since licenses are not issued for particular firearms; however, the intent is clear, that your spouse can't be convicted of carrying your firearm in your car if you have a valid PA LTCF. However, your 16-year old kid would be in trouble.

[Pa. Patriot]

Being that the firearm need not be "registered" to you in order to possess or carry said firearm, I think this boils down to a very simply to the below:

If a firearm is in your possession, and you have a valid LTCF, then you are good to go.