One in the chamber...

[mjfletcher]

Originally Posted by GlockedAndLoaded

Simple, I won't have a hand free to rack the slide because I'll be walking the dog, holding a child, holding hands, buying food, grabbing for something, or playing pocket pool. Stop arguing for the sake of arguing, it's like watching my dog chase her tail. She's never going to catch it, and hell, if she does, she won't know what to do with it.

Yeah she will, (Ive watched this happen) she'll chomp her teeth down on it, yowl in pain, wonder how that happened, see her tail again, growl at it thinking it caused the pain (which it kind of did) and then go back to chasing it. Either that or she'll get dizzy and fall down which is just as funny. Lose/lose for her, but Win/win for you lol

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by gunga

So... I've been cc'ing for a long time, and still can't bring myself to put one in the chamber.

I can see your face cringe right now as you read this, and I don't like it either. I'm just always worried that I'm going to shoot myself in the balls or foot by accident.

Anyway, either way, I can't bring myself to put one in the chamber, and it's time I got over my fear.

Advice?

The first step is to recognize that your fear is irrational. It's certainly possible that any one of us, no matter how experienced, can have a negligent discharge.

However, the core concept of self defense is about mitigating the risk of serious bodily harm and / or death.

The question then becomes how do we mitigate that risk and not expose ourselves to the hazard of an ND when carrying a deadly weapon?

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Get training. Training builds competence which in turn builds confidence.

This is the answer.

When one considers that there are thousands upon thousands of citizens attending formal training every year in America with an accident rate from ND's that is almost negligible, it speaks volumes about the safety protocol that is taught and applied.

The following four rules, when followed religiously, significantly mitigate the risk of an ND at the range, in the home and on the street.

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you aren't willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Be sure of your target.

However, it's not enough just to memorize them. The benefit of learning and applying them in a training environment is that each one eventually becomes a "programmed response", much like marksmanship and gun handling techniques. Another benefit to formal training is the watchful eyes of the primary instructor and AI's constantly reminding you of minor infractions and guiding you over the course of several days.

I only read bits and pieces of this thread but I am aware that there is an ongoing debate between carrying in Condition 1 and Condition 3. I strongly recommend against Condition 3 carry.

There is an overwhelming benefit to Condition 1 carry and it has to do with the opportunity to perform a "status check / chamber check" in the safety of your home before you venture out into the cold, cruel world.

The loudest sound you'll ever hear is a "click" when you were expecting a bang. To have to chamber a round "at the moment of truth", with an adrenalin dump in progress, fear coursing through your veins and a predatory criminal bearing down on you, how certain are you that you will fully retract the slide and actually chamber a round?

I'm not taking any chances.

[Robert Kayland]

Originally Posted by Emptymag

Robert,
I've stuck up for you at least one time that I can recall when you were voicing an unpopular opinion.

On this one, I don't agree with you.
I'm not inclined to outline the reasons, because this thread is what, 10 pages long now, and it's really just turned into an argument between you and seemingly "everyone else".
It's getting absurd, and soon to cause infractions, and/or a lock.

I'll never understand why anyone would argue a point to death like I'm seeing here.

Good grief. Let it go people.

None of the +1 proponents seem to want to admit that it's far, FAR more likely to encounter situations in which one might have a 'gun accident' (not necessarily caused by the possessor of said firearm) than it is to be a victim of a sneak attack in which you're so totally caught off guard that you would still pull your weapon, yet not have the time to rack the slide.

The second point they don't want to admit is, as per the example of the recent post about the drunk father killing his child, that regardless of all the heinous mistakes he made (or anyone else in a future like situation might make), the tragedy could nevertheless have been avoided by not having one in the chamber, the final heinous mistake in the chain of events.

Therein likes the gist of this overlong discussion.

I've already admitted I would 1+ if a) my weapon had an overt safety switch or b) I knew ahead of time I would be in a dicey area or situation in which an attack became more probable, like doing a withdrawal at an ATM.

So I think I've shown myself to be reasonable... it's the 1+'ers who have displayed tunnel vision and keep repeating the same tired cliches without acknowledging those two points I mention above.

Okay, done now.

[Joe Smith]

Originally Posted by Robert Kayland

None of the +1 proponents seem to want to admit that it's far, FAR more likely to encounter situations in which one might have a 'gun accident' (not necessarily caused by the possessor of said firearm) than it is to be a victim of a sneak attack in which you're so totally caught off guard that you would still pull your weapon, yet not have the time to rack the slide.


The second point they don't want to admit is, as per the example of the recent post about the drunk father killing his child, that regardless of all the heinous mistakes he made (or anyone else in a future like situation might make), the tragedy could nevertheless have been avoided by not having one in the chamber, the final heinous mistake in the chain of events.

Sorry Robert, I chose not to live my life due to the mistakes of idiots. Drunk drivers make a long string of mistakes before an accident occurs, and I see no reason why I should let that affect my driving in any way.


Seriously, that is one of the most irrational arguments I have ever heard. It's like wiping before you poop.

Suppose a guy got hammered right after his wife left him and decides to go skydiving. He is drunk, depressed, and does not know how to work a parachute so he negligently pulls the ripcord inside the plane and gets sucked out.

Tragic, but I'm not putting 3 layers of duct tape over my ripcord either.

Therein likes the gist of this overlong discussion.

I've already admitted I would 1+ if a) my weapon had an overt safety switch or b) I knew ahead of time I would be in a dicey area or situation in which an attack became more probable, like doing a withdrawal at an ATM.

So I think I've shown myself to be reasonable... it's the 1+'ers who have displayed tunnel vision and keep repeating the same tired cliches without acknowledging those two points I mention above.

Okay, done now.

1. Your finger is your overt safety switch. Keep it off the trigger!

2. We carry guns because we don't know when an attack will happen. If you chamber a round before doing something more risky than why the heck wouldn't you just leave the round in the chamber? Your gun will NOT discharge within the holster but it is much easier to have a ND when manipulating your gun to chamber/unchamber throughout the day.

3. We have acknowledged your points above, just acknowledged them to be irrational, dangerous, and silly.




In the end Robert, we are making a bigger deal than we might normally because you are well respected around here and we care about you. We are your friends here so we don't want anything bad to happen to you. We are hard on you because we care.

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by Robert Kayland

None of the +1 proponents seem to want to admit that it's far, FAR more likely to encounter situations in which one might have a 'gun accident' (not necessarily caused by the possessor of said firearm) than it is to be a victim of a sneak attack in which you're so totally caught off guard that you would still pull your weapon, yet not have the time to rack the slide.

The second point they don't want to admit is, as per the example of the recent post about the drunk father killing his child, that regardless of all the heinous mistakes he made (or anyone else in a future like situation might make), the tragedy could nevertheless have been avoided by not having one in the chamber, the final heinous mistake in the chain of events.

Therein likes the gist of this overlong discussion.

I've already admitted I would 1+ if a) my weapon had an overt safety switch or b) I knew ahead of time I would be in a dicey area or situation in which an attack became more probable, like doing a withdrawal at an ATM.

So I think I've shown myself to be reasonable... it's the 1+'ers who have displayed tunnel vision and keep repeating the same tired cliches without acknowledging those two points I mention above.

Okay, done now.

I'm going to disagree with you here too, but only on one main point. Specifically, the first paragraph where you state a "gun accident" is "far, FAR more likely". I'm curious if you know of any solid statistical information to support this? I'm on the other side of this fence, but admittedly, can't produce any similar info to support my position.

I respect your right to carry as you believe is best, based on the information and training you have received. The point has been made that most any particular scenario, including any need to deploy a firearm at all, is a statistical long shot for each of us on an individual basis, yet thousands of us prepare for this very possibility. I am VERY new to daily carrying/handling of a firearm (under two years still). I have not yet had any type of accident, and hope I never will, though I will not be so boastful as to say "it can't happen to me".

Have you considered a scenario where you may not wish to actually "draw" your weapon, but one where it could be deployed (as in actually fired) from it's current place and method of concealment - if it were indeed in a ready to fire condition?

[27hand]

I probably didn't read any of this thread on purpose, however, Joe Smiths reference to wiping before he poops piqued my curiosity.

If,as the title indicates, this thread is about carrying a firearm without a round in the chamber, I must say it is a less than desirable position to be in if someone were to tie up one of your arms while you were trying to shoot him off your body, unless of course,you were trained how to rack your slide off his forehead.

I personally cannot even fathom a carry gun not being ready to shoot.

Just my .02.

If this thread degenerated into Joe Smith wiping before he poops due to some reasoning like "well, you clean your dishes before you eat ,don't you?", then I apologize for even sticking my nose in here at this point and will quietly go away and read something about how we carry our loaded to the max self defense pistols.


27tiredandgoodnighthand

[1861]

I have carried since May 5 1970 with a full loaded firearm , whether revolver or semi auto . I personally can,t imagine carrying with empty chamber , but would certainly not encourage someone else to if they weren,t comfortable with the idea.

[Nunsa1371]

Greetings,
I personally always carry a loaded .40 Taurus 24/7 Pro, I don't understand why you wouldn't have "One in the pipe!" If you had to take any action, you would have to load one up & by that time someone could easily have thrown a couple rounds into you! Not having your weapon loaded is useless, unless you are 110% sure that you will have time when approached by a carjacker, mugger, robber....! Your life is or could be at stake! You get the picture! Load that bad boy up! Expect the unexpected, and be defensive! Be Safe!

[Asmodeus]

I've been carrying a 1911 cocked and locked almost every day for 30 years. i was hit by a car while on a bicycle, and my carry gun at the time went bouncing end over end across the road. It didn't go off.

So much for worrying about a 1911 firing without intent.

The rest is about trust.

I trust that I know what i'm doing.

I trust that I've practiced enough

I trust that if my finger is on the trigger and the safety is off, there is a reason for it.

It's as simple as that.

All the arguements against it fall into the area of "I don't trust myself. And since I can't trust myself, no one else must be trustworthy either"

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by gnbrotz

I'm going to disagree with you here too, but only on one main point. Specifically, the first paragraph where you state a "gun accident" is "far, FAR more likely". I'm curious if you know of any solid statistical information to support this? I'm on the other side of this fence, but admittedly, can't produce any similar info to support my position.

Greg,

While I strongly disagree with the notion of Condition 3 carry, I have to agree in principle with Kayland that it is far more likely we'll have an ND vs being assaulted or accosted simply due to the frequency with which we practice and handle our firearms.

I do want to emphasize that I maintain it is a grave tactical mistake to carry in Condition 3 given that the current safety protocol works extremely well.