Questions about Carry License and expungement

[pex]

Generally doesn't just ask for indictments but also informations with the court.

When expungements occur, you can bet they miss 'arrests' or 'informations' or whatever the hell it is they miss. They miss something, and it seems to be enough for PICS or whoever may be accessing BG information says "well, guess you're prohibited."

Because I have yet to understand the stages of the judicial processes and how information is reported and used with the system, I can't precisely tell who is wrong and why. I do understand, however, that not pleaing guilty or being found guilty, along with incomplete expungment, can somehow lead PSP to believe a person is a prohibited person. Is it because they think you're still under information, or do they infer that since you have an arrest record with no reported disposition that you must be under information or indictment and therefore are probably prohibited? I don't know.

[gbrown221]

It depends on the verbiage in the court order and the state the expungment was issued in. PA's expungement statute is not as strong as other states like new jersey.

my nj expungement statute states . . . furthermore the arrest and/or conviction which is the subject matter of this order for the purposes of law will be deemed not to have occured.

the nj expungement statute provides criminal penalties to individuals who refer to matters they know to be expunged. the nj statute also directs law enforcement personell to report NO RECORD FOUND if a background check is conducted. in NJ you only have to dislose an expunged matter if you apply to be a police officer or a member of the NJ BAR.

In PA only arrests with a dismissal or not guilty verdicts are expungable in general. ARD is expungeable also. In PA even with an ARD the arrest is still viewable if you do not petition the court for expungement.

when I applied to Utah they asked me about arrest and indicated expunged matters would be looked into. i still checked NO in the box knowing the NJ statute provides criminal penalties if an individual discloses my expunged matter.

So on that note I have to disagree with BCI instructor on this one. bottomw line: read the court order of expungement carefully. i am not sure what case law about application answers and expungements there is for PA.

Greg

[Zef_66]

I hate to admit it sometimes, but I was arrested when I was younger (but over 18) for stupid shit. Went through the court system and eventually had it expunged. Shortly afterward, when I thought everything was over, I tried to buy a gun and was denied. I figured the expungement never went through and never appealed it. Then 1.5 years later, tried again, and was successful. Haven't had a problem since.

So I don't think there is much need to worry. Go in, fill out the forms, answer no, never been arrested. Then if denied, appeal and it should get cleared up.

[BCI Instructor]

Originally Posted by gbrown221

when I applied to Utah they asked me about arrest and indicated expunged matters would be looked into. i still checked NO in the box knowing the NJ statute provides criminal penalties if an individual discloses my expunged matter.

So on that note I have to disagree with BCI instructor on this one. bottomw line: read the court order of expungement carefully. i am not sure what case law about application answers and expungements there is for PA.
Greg

Hello Greg,

I understand and respect your logic here Sir; disclosure is a -very- personal matter. As we both agree, expungement processes vary broadly from state to state. In the case of someone from NJ, they may still wish to disclose.

Why? A negative reply, even when supported by state statute or policy, may be much more of a headache if it is initially found to be an "inaccurate" response in light of what the application processor finds, regardless of what the original jurisdiction's policies or statutes support.

Example: Someone applies for Utah from NJ. They do not disclose an expunged item. It turns up as an arrest per NICS / NCIC. They are denied, then choose to not pursue appeal or cannot do so due to the timeframe or whatever reason. NOW on their next application or even _renewal_ for many other permits, they MUST disclose that they were DENIED a permit by another entity. This alone in PA could be cause for revocation or refusal to issue or to renew. You now may experience a cascade error / domino effect when trying to renew other permits in your "collection".

Please understand Sir we are not at odds here, I wish the world ALWAYS supported NJ's and your views as to this issue. Problem is that holding your ground, even when it is correct morally and legally, sometimes experiences loss via collateral damage.

For the reasons above, I privately counsel Utah applicants as to any arrest or conviction questions, general or specific, via the logic above based upon my experience.

I had an applicant for a Utah permit last year, former career Navy Intel, works as a occasional consultant via private contractors to the DoD.
He was denied a Utah permit because he failed to disclose an expunged juvenille arrest that could have been construed as a Domestic Violence item (it wasnt, but during that timeframe other more broad or vague offense statutes were used, DV did not have the individual "focus" / specific statute support it now "enjoys") .

He was assigned probation and ARD. He chose not to pursue the Utah permit due to travel / time constraints. It came up again when he pursued Florida instead as an alternative to Utah, and again during a background check for a subsequent consultancy requiring a security clearance.

Again, a very personal choice - you have to weigh the possible risks.

[gbrown221]

BCI: I appreciate your polite reply. I was advised by my attorney that if I disclose an expunged matter in NJ you violate the court order.

warmest regards and looking forward to speaking to you about our SC permit project!!!

Greg

[BCI Instructor]

thanks for understanding Greg, appreciate the additional details as to it possibly violating a court order, seeking legal counsel for an intrepretation was a smart move

PS - you may wish to check the SC thread for additional info and for a few items I am seeking assistance with or comment on

We should have quite a bit of the info we seek by late Monday

[larain60]

Hi all,

Answering yes or no re. an expunged item really does come down to two things. First is state law where the expungement occurred. If the state law says you can answer no and its deemed not to have occurred, such as NJ, then as you said by law you can answer no to the arrest/conviction questions.

Second, assuming you have the legal right to say no, then its a matter of personal choice to disclose the expunged item. There are two schools of thought on it. If you disclose something you had the right not to, it may be used against you. For instance, some PDs may just as a matter of course deny the application bc you had such an item in your application. If you dont disclose it, and they find it, you can then explain it and produce the appropriate proof that the information must be disregarded.

For me, Id opt not to disclose something I had the legal right to deem it to not have occurred. If it came up then Id produce the court order.

EDIT: Regarding the feedback above in Utah, the Utah state code 77-18-15 requires the Utah Criminal Investigations and Technical Services Division to index, and seal the expungeable criminal records sealed in a Utah expungement. However, the statute specifically states that Utah can still use the information in the index for the purpose of establishing good character for issuance of a concealed firearm permit as provided in Section 53-5-704.

So if someone is arrested in Utah then gets it expunged in Utah, that would STILL be relevant and would have to be disclosed if the Utah resident applied for a Ut Ccw.

However, in another case if an out of state resident applies for a Ut ccw and had an out of state expungement that suppresses all such information, then it looks ok for them to answer NO on the Utah app... especially if the expungement was from a state like NJ.

YMMV!