LTCF: Carrying in/on School Zone; PSP Answer

[SigForLife]

I know this issue has frequently come up on these forums and while most of us agreed that a LTCF would protect one from prosecution, the answer has never been definite. During some research for a different issue, I came across this PSP Newsletter that specifically states that a LTCF DOES allow one to have a firearm on school property. See: http://www.psp.state.pa.us/psp/lib/p...s/2006_Dec.pdf

Just wanted to make sure everyone was aware.

[Damage control]

Originally Posted by SigForLife

I know this issue has frequently come up on these forums and while most of us agreed that a LTCF would protect one from prosecution, the answer has never been definite. During some research for a different issue, I came across this PSP Newsletter that specifically states that a LTCF DOES allow one to have a firearm on school property. See: http://www.psp.state.pa.us/psp/lib/p...s/2006_Dec.pdf

Just wanted to make sure everyone was aware.

Nice find rep sent!

DC

[widearea]

Originally Posted by SigForLife

I know this issue has frequently come up on these forums and while most of us agreed that a LTCF would protect one from prosecution, the answer has never been definite. During some research for a different issue, I came across this PSP Newsletter that specifically states that a LTCF DOES allow one to have a firearm on school property. See: http://www.psp.state.pa.us/psp/lib/p...s/2006_Dec.pdf

Just wanted to make sure everyone was aware.

So that would include LEO as well...

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by SigForLife

II came across this PSP Newsletter that specifically states that a LTCF DOES allow one to have a firearm on school property.

it only states that in relation to the federal GFSZ act, though.

on the next page, they talk about the PA state law, and they do not mention anything about an LTCF being an exception.

(personally, i wouldn't expect them to since the wording is "it shall be a defense" meaning you'll get charged, but then in court you can use your LTCF as a defense--assuming the courts follow the actual text of the law--which is, of course, a big assumption.)

[SigForLife]

I don't think any judge, with such direction from the PSP as that newsletter, is going to convict any licensed individual. By looking at the way the newsletter is set forth, specifically: this is fed law and this is how PA law differs (they don't say that PA law differs with regards to schools), there is no way for a licensed individual to be convicted if he/she relied on this publication. Moreover, it would be entrapment since the PSP is saying the differences between fed and state law are X, after specifically stating that a PA LTCF allows lawful carry in a school in the fed context and not stating that there exists any difference between state and fed law.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by SigForLife

I don't think any judge, with such direction from the PSP as that newsletter, is going to convict any licensed individual. By looking at the way the newsletter is set forth, specifically: this is fed law and this is how PA law differs (they don't say that PA law differs with regards to schools), there is no way for a licensed individual to be convicted if he/she relied on this publication. Moreover, it would be entrapment since the PSP is saying the differences between fed and state law are X, after specifically stating that a PA LTCF allows lawful carry in a school in the fed context and not stating that there exists any difference between state and fed law.

Unfortunately, that newsletter will never get into court. It's an interpretation of the law, and judges don't need it, and citizens can't violate a statute based on an erroneous opinion (not that it's erroneous, it's just not a factor in deciding guilt.)
A statute is what it is, and no bureaucrat can rewrite it.
Still, it's nice to see.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by SigForLife

they don't say that PA law differs with regards to schools

yes they do. from page 3:

In addition to any federal restrictions regarding weapons on school property, Pennsylvania has its own law concerning this problem. Under 18 PA C.S. § 912, a person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree (M-1) if he possess a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly funded educations institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

there is no way for a licensed individual to be convicted if he/she relied on this publication.

this publication won't mean squat in court. the PSP is not a source of binding legal advice. and, they aren't even advising that you can carry a gun in a school with an LTCF...they advising that doing so is not a violation of the federal GFSZ act, but is a violation of PA state law.

Moreover, it would be entrapment since the PSP is saying the differences between fed and state law are X, after specifically stating that a PA LTCF allows lawful carry in a school in the fed context and not stating that there exists any difference between state and fed law.

they do state that there is a difference...see the bolded "in addition to" part in what i quoted...along with the positive assertion that carrying in a school is a violation of the state law coupled with the lack of any assertion that an LTCF provides an exception to that state law.

and it wouldn't be entrapment anyway. the PSP stating something in a flyer does not actually change the law nor does it in any way interfere with the ability of other police agencies to enforce the actual law (as opposed to the PSP's opinions).

seriously, while the letter of the state law does say you can carry in a school with an LTCF, whether or not a court would see it that way is a crap shoot (which is a sad reflection on the state of our judiciary, but that is another topic)...and a crap shoot that would be in no way influenced by this flyer.

[SigForLife]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

but is a violation of PA state law.

Hold on, where do they state that? They specifically give the example that in PA, an individual with a PA LTCF, would be exempt under the fed law. Now where do they say that such is not the case for state law? It is entrapment if the PSP stated that it was lawful federally and then ignored to address it as pertaining to the state, when they have a specific section to depict the differences, because an individual who is trying to determine what is lawful is going to rely on the example given. They state, "a Pennsylvania carry permit with respect to a school zone in Pennsylvania."

Also, I don't know why it wouldn't make it into court. While I agree that the court is the ultimate interpreter, I know of numerous cases where TSA publications, even from their website, as well as, NTSB and other similar governmental organization publications have been used to show compliance by individuals when the governmental organization was claiming a violation.

[jofreder]

I do not see any clarification on carry into a school. I read the school Zone section but the topic of carrying in a school just says it is a crime. I find it curious that the school zone section gave the exemptions but on school property just said against the law. Did I miss something?

[Damage control]

From PSP post.

Issues arise concerning
firearm possession within a school
zone and more specifically,
carrying a firearm to or from an
FFL premises located near a
school. Generally, it is unlawful
for an individual to possess a
firearm within 1,000 feet of a school zone. However, there
are a number of
exceptions to the
law - see Title 18
United States
Code, Section
921(a)(25) for
definition of
“school zone” and
Section 922(q)
for the law
concerning school
zone possession.
The following
examples list when
the individual
would not be in
violation of the
Federal law with
respect to firearm
possession in a school zone:
• The firearm is possessed on private property not part of
school grounds, such as possession on an FFL’s business
premises;
• The firearm is unloaded and stored within a locked
container (to include bringing a firearm to an FFL or
departing the premises with a purchased firearm), or a
locked firearms rack on a vehicle;
• The firearm is possessed by an individual that is licensed
to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or
a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State
or political subdivision requires, that, before an individual
obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of
the State or political subdivision verify that the individual
is qualified under law to receive the license (e.g. a Pennsylvania
carry permit with respect to a school zone in Pennsylvania);
• The firearm is possessed by an individual for use in a
program approved by a school in the school zone;
• The firearm is possessed by an individual in accordance
with a contract entered into between a school in the school
zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
• The firearm is possessed by an individual that is a law
enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity;
• The firearm is unloaded and is possessed by an individual
while traversing school premises for the purpose of
gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting,
if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
authorities.

In addition to any
federal restrictions
regarding weapons
on school property,
Pennsylvania has its
own law concerning
this problem. Under
18 PA C.S. § 912, a
person commits a
misdemeanor of the
first degree (M-1) if
he possess a weapon
in the buildings of, on
the grounds of, or in
any conveyance
providing transportation
to or from any
elementary or
secondary publicly funded educations institution, any elementary
or secondary private school licensed by the Department
of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial
school. A person convicted of an M-1 may be sentenced to a
maximum of 5 years in prison.
The term “weapon” in this section includes but is not
limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nunchuck
stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument
or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

DC