Philadelphia LTCF regulation conflicts with state laws?

[mythaeus]

I found a paper given to me when I picked up my LTCF which contains a list of what I should bear in mind with the new LTCF. A few things I did not know and could've been major issues:

1. Police officers and other LEO personnel, as part of their official duties, may encounter you either on the street, inside a business or residence, or during a vehicle stop....you MUST inform the officer, that you are armed and posses a valid permit to carry...

2. Your permit does not exempt you from obeying appropriate local status or ordiances governing behavior with firearms.

3. Under no Circumstance should you store your weapon in a vehicle (trunk or otherwise). If your weapon is lost or stolen because of the weapon being left in a vehicle, this will result in the immediate revocation of your license to carry.

1 + 2. My understanding is that you do NOT have to inform the LEO when I am carrying unless asked. Can someone send me the statute? Doesn't PA state law preemp local laws on this?

3. I am completely confused now about my ability to store firearms in my car.

Thanks for any guidance.

Al

[MiniDevil]

Far as I am concerned, my PA state laws tell philly laws to kiss it.

[angus]

Not sure if this is the applicable statute, but the UFA says:

TITLE 18
PA CRIMES CODES

§6122. Proof of License and Exception.

(a) General rule.-When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a ve*hicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to provide such license, either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing, shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

(b) Exception.-An individual carrying a firearm on or about his person or in a vehicle and claiming an exception under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried with*out a license) shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce satisfactory ev*idence of qualification for exception.(Chgd. by 1.1997, Act 5(l), eff. 6/21/97.)

Reads as if the production of the license is upon lawful demand of the LEO, NOT in just any interaction with an LEO. I've heard from many sources on this forum and elsewhere (including LEO's) that we do not need to inform until requested, but that's more of a general knowledge assumption than what I have actually read in statutes, except for the above. Maybe someone else has better statutes or case law to share.

[gnbrotz]

1. False. There is no legal obligation to notify you are armed under any circumstance. It may be prudent to do so in certain situations, but is never a legal requirement.

2. This is technically correct. §6120 of the UFA prohibits municipalities from regulating firearms, ammunition and ammunition components "when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth." If they do, and you violate their "illegal" regulation, you may well end up in court challenging them (and the validity of the regulation) unless they do not enforce it. A LTCF does not permit you to ignore legal local regulations (discharge within municipality limits for example). You can't go blasting away on New Year's Eve and then when the cops show up, claim "It's ok...I have a LTCF."

3. No legal basis whatsoever. BUT, if it happens in Philly, expect them to cite §6109 (e)(1)(i), often referred to as the 'character clause'. Again, if revoked for this reason, you will have to appeal the revocation and attempt to prove your case in court. Leaving the window down, firearm on the seat with a note that says "Please don't steal my gun" probably won't get you as much success as having your firearm secured out of sight, in a locked container, inside your locked vehicle. I'd say you'd have an excellent case based on the second example, but that doesn't make the appeal process any cheaper.

[Statkowski]

1. You are under no obligation to voluntarily inform anyone that you are carrying concealed, unless specifically asked by an LEO.

2. Don't know what constitutes governing behaviour with firearms. Can they prohibit you from carrying? No. Can they prohibit you from blasting away at targets in your back yard? Yes.

3. Does state law prohibit you from keeping your firearm in your motor vehicle when you're not in it? No. Is it the wise thing to do? Philadelphia questions your judgment on this if the firearm is stolen, hence the LTCF revocation (which may or may not stand up in court). If you are going to do such, recommend you purchase a Center-of-Mass or similar gun safe - glove compartments offer little protection against thieves. Would you store loose cash in your car?

[angus]

Originally Posted by MiniDevil

Far as I am concerned, my PA state laws tell philly laws to kiss it.

Yeah, I wouldn't count on local Philly laws/policies to be lawful anyways.

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by angus

Not sure if this is the applicable statute, but the UFA says:

TITLE 18
PA CRIMES CODES




Reads as if the production of the license is upon lawful demand of the LEO, NOT in just any interaction with an LEO. I've heard from many sources on this forum and elsewhere (including LEO's) that we do not need to inform until requested, but that's more of a general knowledge assumption than what I have actually read in statutes, except for the above. Maybe someone else has better statutes or case law to share.

Producing your LTCF on demand is far different than automatically informing any LEO I may encounter. Twice in the last week I was in a Sheetz store at the same time as a local LEO. Because of the weather and my attire, my firearm was concealed. I did not bother to engage him so that I could inform him I was armed. I'm sure that if I did, he would have wondered why the hell I thought he cared.

[angus]

Originally Posted by gnbrotz

Producing your LTCF on demand is far different than automatically informing any LEO I may encounter. Twice in the last week I was in a Sheetz store at the same time as a local LEO. Because of the weather and my attire, my firearm was concealed. I did not bother to engage him so that I could inform him I was armed. I'm sure that if I did, he would have wondered why the hell I thought he cared.

Agreed- your example is why I put that up. I posted that because it spells out when one does have to inform LEO's: ie, upon lawful demand. Other interactions don't count.

[gbrown221]

I am aware I have brought this up ---

the same would apply if you open carry in Philly. Yeah it's legal but they will make their own rules and revoke your permit. The you would have to fight it out in court to prove your case.

that stupid letter they give you and make you sign for when you get your permit states that your permit is for concealed carry only!!!


greg

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by angus

Agreed- your example is why I put that up. I posted that because it spells out when one does have to inform LEO's: ie, upon lawful demand. Other interactions don't count.

The section you quoted states that you must produce a LTCF upon demand, NOT inform you are armed upon demand.