no drivers license...no carry permit...or purchase

[dvtrush]

i am very grateful for a forum such as this and hope that one of the members may be able to guide my search.

i am fundamentalist christian with strict objections to the use of the social security number in any way, shape or form. back in april, 2000 when my driver's license was about to expire i went to penndot to renew and was informed that it would not be renewed without me divulging my ssn. i refused and have since not had a pennsylviania drivers license(or any other).
yesterday, i went over to milford, pike county and visited the pike county sheriff's office regarding a permit to carry and was told that without a drivers license i cannot even apply.

i went online and did a little research and found chapter 61, subchapter a, section6109 regarding the application process for getting a carry permit and title 37 chapters 31 and 33 for purchasing a firearm.
under chapter 33.102, i, B, "definitions" says "a valid government photo identification card" is acceptable to purchase a firearm even if it doesn't have your address on the document. should that not also be the case with the "carry" application??

when i showed the sheriff's chief deputy my passport he turned me down and once again told me that it had to be a drivers licence or state id (the state id also requires a ssn)

can anyone enlighten me or refer me to 1st / 2nd amendment type lawyer for help???

many thanks...dvt

[Joe Smith]

You can use a state ID card for your LTCF. Don't know if you have to provide your SSN to get that as well. Actually I don't know if I ever gave mine, but who knows.

[angus]

OP said that the state ID also requires SSN.

[Joe Smith]

Originally Posted by angus

OP said that the state ID also requires SSN.

Whoops, you are correct.


I'd fight with the DMV a bit on this one. If you have a birth certificate or something they should allow you to get an ID. While it claims a SSN needed on teh website http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/driverLic...gPhotoID.shtml
I would inquire about it.

[Montanya]

I understand wanting to keep private information private, but I dunno if I would go to the extent of not getting my DL renewed to keep from giving them my social. Good luck. IMO there are some fights worth the effort and some not.

[str8shooter]

snip from www.privacyrights.org

Some government agencies, including tax authorities, welfare offices, and state Departments of Motor Vehicles, can require your SSN number as mandated by federal law (42 USC 405 (c)(2)(C)(v) and (i)).

The way I interpret this, if the State ID is issued by the DMV, it is within their authority to ask for your SSN. However, the Chester County LTCF application asks for a "Photo ID/Drivers License number, but doesn't specify that the photo ID be a DMV issued State ID. If the Pike Co. application is also ambiguous, maybe you have some wiggle room there. It also has a box for the SSN, but states that it does not have to be given, just like the state form we fill out when buying a gun.

Now I'll get on my soap box. Once again, the local government want to run roughshod over our rights to privacy. SSNs were originated to track an individuals' account within the Social Security program, and until the 1980s expressly stated the number and card were not to be used for identification purposes.

People let their guard down and before we knew it, they were used to identify us for credit reporting, drivers licenses and even insurance policies. We've become numb to the potential damage giving out our SSN can do and freely blurt it out when asked because there's a box for it on some form, yet some people protect their phone numbers better than their SSN by refusing to give it or giving a false one when asked.

another snip from www.privacyrights.org


The Privacy Act of 1974, which requires all government agencies — federal, state and local — that request SSNs to provide a "disclosure" statement on the form. The statement explains whether you are required to provide your SSN or if it’s optional, how the SSN will be used, and under what statutory or other authority the number is requested (5 USC 552a, note). The U.S. Office of Management and Budget, Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA) provides guidance and oversight regarding the Privacy Act of 1974. The text of the Privacy Act can be found at the Web site www.usdoj.gov/foia/privstat.htm

The Privacy Act states that you cannot be denied a government benefit or service if you refuse to disclose your SSN unless the disclosure is required by federal law, or the disclosure is to an agency that has been using SSNs before January 1975, when the Privacy Act went into effect. There are other exceptions as well. Read the U.S. Department of Justice's explanation at this Web site, www.usdoj.gov/04foia/1974ssnu.htm .

[billamj]

The SSN requirement is one of the nicities that was passed for us in the mid-90s, I believe, by congress and signed by BC IIRC. It was to be used in order to track "dead beat" parents. It is the same exact reason that you are asked for your SSN when you get a fishing or hunting license. I don't care for it in the least but it is a federal requirement and they are the only ones, according to laws that they passed, who are supposed to be able to put requirements on the use of your SSN so it is extremely difficult to get around.

[PisnNapalm]

It's a government number... let them use it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Zef_66]

Guys, the OP is asking for help here...not opinions. Lets keep this thread on track and help him out if we can.

In most cases, the sheriff makes up their own rules regarding LTCFs. Just a look around the forum here and you will see how many sheriff's will make requirements about references, calling employers, sending letters to references, revoking licenses, etc. So I would assume this is also a rule made up by this particular sheriff.

I would go back and try to sit down with the sheriff and tell him that you do not believe the SSN should have to be given for this application and that your government issued photo ID (which a passport is much harder to get than a silly PA ID) should suffice fine. Sorry I can't help out with a lawyer or anything. But I would just try to work this out again with the sheriff. Try to collect as much laws and statues to support your case.

[Rule10b5]

.

Edit: Nevermind, I googled and answered my own question.