LTCF revoked because of speeding

[Rule10b5]

Originally Posted by Sebastian

The valid legal finding is that there's nowhere in the law that says you can't carry a firearm on a reciprocal license, even if you've had your Pennsylvania license revoked. The section you quoted on revocation only applies to Pennsylvania licenses. They can't revoke a license from another state because they are not the issuing authority. The states listed that we don't have formal agreements with are still reciprocal states, they are just are by statute, meaning we recognize that state's license by decree of the Attorney General, which he's empowered to do by the UFA. It's just as valid as if we had a formal agreement.

I don't doubt there are lawyers who say you can't do this, but I challenge them to name what part of the law says you can't. Sure, it's possibly a judge will make up law, but that's always a possibility with any law.

As I've said, many, many times, as a practicing attorney in Pennsylvania: there is the law as you would like it to be, and the law as it actually is and as judges apply it. Merely reading a statute tells you about as much about what the law is, as glancing at the top of the hood on a used car tells you about the condition of the engine.

Standing back, figuratively thumping your chest, and pointing to the absence of language in a statute as a basis for saying something is legal is a sure way to end up with the wrong answer.

Bill is correct.

This isn't a case of someone who lives in Pa. carrying on a Utah permit because he felt like getting a Utah permit instead of a Pa. permit. This is a case where someone in Pa. has had his Pa. license to carry revoked because he has been deemed unfit to carry a firearm concealed within Pa. The argument you're trying to advance is, essentially, a legal form of "Gotcha." Playing "Gotcha" with the state works about as often as it did with your parents when you thought you'd found a technical reason why you didn't break curfew -- it gets you smacked in the face. And even if you found a technical basis for your conduct, you know what judges typically do in those situations, where you're violating the spirit of the law? They find a technical basis to fuck you anyway.

And, just as an FYI: The AG's position isn't definitive as to what a DA can or can't go after you for. And it has even less to do with the eventual conclusion of the court.

So, I reiterate: If your license to carry in PA has been revoked for cause, do not attempt to carry on an out of state permit (unless you feel like paying for a lawyer and losing anyway).

[XD45]

Originally Posted by billamj

The question was originally raised because people were carrying in Pa. with a Utah license but were residents of Md.

As far as I can tell a MD resident w/ a non-resident utah permit could carry in PA.

[billamj]

Originally Posted by XD45

As far as I can tell a MD resident w/ a non-resident utah permit could carry in PA.

You're right but IIRC there were a few cases where the local police were telling people that they couldn't cc because their Utah permit was non-resident. The AG came out with the statement quoted above to "clarify" their position that it did not matter what the state of residence was if the person had a valid LTCF from a state that we have reciprocity with.

[NineseveN]

I am obviously not a lawyer, so take this advice for what it's worth...

As I keep saying, the law is whatever they say it is unless you spend enough money and can prove otherwise. This sheriff has already revoked an LTCF for a reason we find dubious, though it is technically legal as the section of law under which he did it is vague and seemingly allows for his discretion...so the permit was revoked with cause until you spend the money and time to prove otherwise.

This isn't the same as Gnbrotz in a legal sense, as he did nothing illegal. The person in question in this thread did break the law and pled guilty, so now it's time to go to court and argue nuances and interpretations as well as the scope of which that section of law applies to.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by Rule10b5

the law as it actually is and as judges apply it.

which are also, unfortunately, two (sometimes very) different things.

Merely reading a statute tells you about as much about what the law is, as glancing at the top of the hood on a used car tells you about the condition of the engine.

though it is that way, it should not be.

the law says what the law says. it's written in english, and though reading it sometimes requires a very systematic and patient approach, it still does ultimately say what it says...usually actually very clearly if you read it very thoroughly.

while i agree entirely that carrying on a utah license in this case would land you in hot water, i don't think there is an actual law against doing so. (at least i can't find it.)

the law is *supposed* to be cold, logical, and precise (kinda like a computer program). the logic in this case *should* go like this:

step 1. there is a law saying you can carry in PA on a license from another state if PA accepts that state's license. utah is one of those states, so, in general, a person can carry on a utah license.

step 2. is there an exception in that law saying it does not apply to PA residents or to people who have had there PA LTCF revoked? i can't find one...assuming i am not just missing it, the answer is no--there is no such exception. so, up to this point, you can carry on a utah license even if you are a PA resident who has had his LTCF revoked.

step 3. is there some other law saying you cannot carry on a recognized state's license if you are a PA resident or if you have had your PA LTCF revoked? i can't find one...again, assuming i am not just missing it, there is no such law. so, at this point, you can carry on a utah license even if you are a PA resident who has had his LTCF revoked.

correct conclusion (though not the one that would likely be reached by a court): you can carry on a utah license even if you are a PA resident who has had his LTCF revoked.

that *should* be all there is to it. that is rule of law.

the law should be applied precisely as it reads (or doesn't read)...but it is not because judges do too much "interpreting" and not enough "reading".

so much for rule of law....

perhaps we should have computer programmers for judges...

(and ain't it kinda funny how when it is in the state's interest to apply the law precisely as it reads, the courts often do just that. but, when it is not in the state's interest to apply the law precisely, judges often "interpet" it. which explains why the judge will nail you on a "technicality", but you can't use a "technicality" for your defense.)

[/rant]

(of course, everything rule said is actually correct. it just shouldn't be.)

[Sebastian]

Originally Posted by Rule10b5

And, just as an FYI: The AG's position isn't definitive as to what a DA can or can't go after you for. And it has even less to do with the eventual conclusion of the court.

So, I reiterate: If your license to carry in PA has been revoked for cause, do not attempt to carry on an out of state permit (unless you feel like paying for a lawyer and losing anyway).

I don't disagree, that to be perfectly safe, it's best to heed your advice. Is there precedent that says if your license is revoked for cause, but the cause isn't sufficient to get your foreign reciprocal license revoked, that you can't carry on that? If there is, I'll shut up. But I don't see how it could be read that way without making up the law wholesale. I mean, I can see why an attorney would advise against it, but it seem to me that if the license issued is valid and recognized by PA, that's all there is to it.

[Kramer]

I am going to play devils advocate for a moment based on the statements below...

"step 1. there is a law saying you can carry in PA on a license from another state if PA accepts that state's license. Utah is one of those states, so, in general, a person can carry on a Utah license."

Ok, a person can carry in P.A. on a Utah license, BUT does that apply only to a Utah resident here on vacation or passing through?

Another view: A P.A. resident is unable to obtain a P.A. LTCF or has one revoked, so they apply and receive a Utah non-resident LTCF... correct me if I am wrong, but that sounds to me to be similar to a "Straw Purchase" or what you can not have on your own in your own state is given to you by another state!?!?

Also: "The section you quoted on revocation only applies to Pennsylvania licenses. They can't revoke a license from another state because they are not the issuing authority"

Correct, P.A. can not revoke a license from another state, BUT they can contact the issuing state and inform them of your "actions" that kept you from receiving a LTFC in P.A. and I am sure at that point the Utah license will be pulled.

[CZ40P]

I think the Uniform Firearms Acts spells it out quite clearly:

(11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle which, person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

So for the purposes of car carry ANY PERMIT WILL SUFFICE, when you get out of the car OPEN CARRY....................You will be legal

Everytime this subject comes up, it takes on a life of it's own. Kind of like a dog chasing it's own tail.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by Kramer

Ok, a person can carry in P.A. on a Utah license, BUT does that apply only to a Utah resident here on vacation or passing through?

if you can find somewhere in the law that says the utah license only applies to a utah resident here on vacation or passing through, please post it.

i can find no such law.

if such a law does not exist, then, no, the utah license does not apply only to such a person.

Another view: A P.A. resident is unable to obtain a P.A. LTCF or has one revoked, so they apply and receive a Utah non-resident LTCF... correct me if I am wrong, but that sounds to me to be similar to a "Straw Purchase" or what you can not have on your own in your own state is given to you by another state!?!?

views and "sounds like" should not matter. that is my whole point. all that should matter is what the law says.

if the law doesn't make sense (and i can see how this one maybe doesn't make sense), it can and should be changed. however, until that happens the existing law should be applied as it reads...not as it is "interpreted".

that is the definition of rule of law...and rule of law is what this country is founded on...without it our entire governmental system becomes illegitimate.

Correct, P.A. can not revoke a license from another state, BUT they can contact the issuing state and inform them of your "actions" that kept you from receiving a LTFC in P.A. and I am sure at that point the Utah license will be pulled.

utah may or may not pull the license.

if the legislature wants people who have had their PA LTCFs revoked to not be able to carry on another state's permit, all they have to do is amend the UFA to add a line saying something to the effect of "a person whose PA LTCF has been revoked may not carry a concealed firearm in PA" or add an exception to the line that permits out of state permits to be accepted saying something like "this does not apply to PA residents who hold non-resident permits from other states".

however, it is not the place of a judge to "interpret" that into the existing law. (in reality, though, that is likely exactly what would happen.)

[KLiQ]

it seems this thread has changed from it's original topic but -

What if he has a LTCF - but wasn't carrying when he was stopped. Same crime was committed. There isn't a seperate crime for speeding while carrying. So why wouldn't any of our LTCF be revoked if we got a speeding ticket? I agree with whoever said "somethings missing". Someone mentioned earlier "what if he was only doing 5mph over? Same crime - Summary offense.

Otherwise -

How many of would still have a LTCF? I'm not condoning speeding. But even the best of us go 5mph on occasion.

Just Doesn't make sense to me....