Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Question From Journalist About Utah CCW

    Hi All--

    Dan Frosch here. I'm a reporter for a national news outlet, and I'm working on a story on non-resident Utah ccw permits. Looking to speak with a person or two who has gotten a permit over the last year or so (non-resident, Utah specifically) and could speak to me about the benefits of the permit, their experience taking the class, etc. If anyone is interested in chatting briefly with me about this, please call or email me today if at all possible. Thanks so much!

    Best,

    Dan Frosch
    (303) 629-7600; office
    (303) 704-9033; cell
    djfrosch1@yahoo.com

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Question From Journalist About Utah CCW

    Welcome to the forum, and kudos for seeking the facts about guns issues.

    PAFOA has plenty of members who have taken Utah courses, and several people who teach such courses. It's a pretty good resource for accurate firearms law information.

    With luck, some of them will make contact with you, and provide you with a perspective that will impact even an NYT story (a venue that doesn't have the best track record on gun facts, but let's be optimistic.)

    I've passed your info on, let's see what ensues.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

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    Default Re: Question From Journalist About Utah CCW

    Thanks so much! I really appreciate it. Getting a good cross section of people who have taken the Utah course out of state is critical to my story and of course I'd like to be as accurate as possible. A persepctive from gun owners would indeed be really helpful here and hopefully give way to a truly accurate story.

    Best,

    Dan

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    Default Re: Question From Journalist About Utah CCW

    Here is the only article I could find by the OP on a gun related issue.



    Gunning for the White House
    While the gun lobby has traditionally been assumed a Republican sure-thing at the polls, both John Kerry and George Bush have begun an awkward political duel over the gun issue with varying degrees of success.
    April 27, 2004 |

    If you were to peruse the official website for John Kerry's presidential campaign these days, you might be a bit surprised by what you find.

    Amidst headlines and headshots of the candidate proclaiming his support for such standard Democratic issues as peace in Iraq, middle-class tax relief and women's rights, there's a link with the somewhat incongruous title Sportsmen for Kerry. If you click on it, you're whisked to a new page and greeted by a rather amusing photo of Kerry wearing a screaming orange hunting vest, an enormous rifle slung over his shoulder, staring intently at some sort of dead animal held by a man next to him.

    The picture of Kerry the hunter, and for that matter, the entire 'Sportsmen for Kerry' site -- which touts Kerry's firm belief in Americans' right to bear arms and also in gun control -- underscores an important point. With a nail-biter election all but certain, neither candidate can afford to take any issue for granted.

    Such an approach even holds true with guns, where the lines have long been drawn between Democrats and Republicans and where the omnipotent gun lobby has been racking up Republican votes for as long as anyone can remember. Indeed, with crucial swing states up for grabs like West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Arkansas and Ohio -- each with a high percentage of gun owners -- John Kerry and George Bush have begun an awkward political duel over the gun issue with varying degrees of success.

    "The electorate is so evenly divided, that both candidates are having to walk this tightrope where they're simultaneously playing to their base and to the center to win over swing voters," says Kristin Goss, an expert on gun control and a visiting assistant professor of government at Georgetown.

    Kerry, says Goss, is portraying himself as a sensible warrior and life-long hunter (hence the Sportsmen for Kerry site), and subsequently trying to mollify the moderate gun owners who shake their heads when their right-leaning compatriots gush about Glock 9s and AK-47s. At the same time, Kerry is keeping his Democratic base in line by bad mouthing the conservative NRA whenever he gets a chance.

    Bush, on the other hand, wants to extend the Clinton-era ban on assault weapons which expires in September -- a moderate and highly popular position. But on April 17, he dispatched Dick Cheney, champion of the solider of fortune types, to the 133rd annual convention of the NRA in Pittsburgh; Cheney responded by whipping the crowd into a frenzy with statements like, "John Kerry's approach to the Second Amendment has been to regulate, regulate and regulate some more."

    Despite the angry rhetoric coming from the right, some say that Kerry could have the edge with the gun lobby -- if he plays his Vietnam experience right.

    Robert Spitzer, a political science professor at the State University of New York at Cortland and author of The Politics of Gun Control, says "Clinton tried the same thing, saying he was a hunter and used guns, but it didn't help him much," says Spitzer. "But this could help Kerry, because not only is he an active hunter and has talked about basic gun rights for honest gun owners, but he is also a war veteran. There is a certain respect among people with guns for Kerry because he fought in a combat unit and understands what guns are about."

    Conversely, Bush has already faced a backlash from some gun owners outraged over his 2000 election year vow to extend the ban on assault weapons; he has since remained virtually mute about the issue (you won't find one word on the Bush/Cheney '04 website). And while Republicans will undoubtedly block any legislated extension of the ban before it gets to the Senate floor, Spitzer says that if the debate stays in the spotlight, it could put the president in an unenviable conundrum given that 66 percent of gun owners approve of the ban but groups like the NRA loathe it.

    For its part, NRA leadership has tried to downplay their differences with Bush. "We disagree with him on this issue, but on numerous other important issues, affecting law abiding gun owners, he has been very supportive," says NRA spokeswoman Kelly Hobbs.

    Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, whose 300,000 members is significantly smaller than the NRA's 4 million, is less diplomatic. "What in the world would possess a Republican president to do anything that would jeopardize his second amendment base when that's what put him in office?" he bristles. "It would be disaster for the president [if the ban was signed]. You'd be able to hear people throwing up in gun clubs across the country."

    Both Hobbs and Pratt agree that none of their following will likely be seduced by Kerry -- both the NRA and Gun Owners of America gave Kerry a failing grade as a Senator because he voted for numerous gun control measures and most recently, opposed legislation that would make gun companies exempt from lawsuits, a huge issue for the gun lobby. Nonetheless, Pratt notes that some members of his group have already talked about boycotting Bush, although the outcry has yet to become a chorus.

    According to an April 13 Los Angeles Times story on Bush's rocky relationship with gun groups, between 75 and 80 million Americans own guns and as many as 10 million of them are willing to cast their vote based on gun-related issues. Still, only a small fraction of gun owners are members of groups like the NRA and Gun Owners of America -- and the faction's potential boycott of Bush at the polls would not mean that those votes would go to Kerry.

    All of this could mean two things, as both campaigns intensify their appeal to swing voters in the coming months: Kerry, with his orange vest and military credo, might very will sway the minds of some of the 'salt of the earth sportsmen,' as Kristin Goss calls them. And Bush might very well lose support from some of those Second Amendment stalwarts if the ban on automatic weapons becomes a political hot potato.

    Come high noon in November, the gangly Bostonian with the hunting rifle and the swaggering Texan with the loose trigger finger will finally fight face to face, and every vote will count. Who falls first into the D.C. dust remains to be seen.

    Dan Frosch is a freelance journalist based in New York City. He's been on staff at the San Gabriel Valley Weekly section of the Los Angeles Times, The Source magazine, the Pacific Palisadian Post and most recently the Santa Fe Reporter.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/18531/..._house/?page=1

    Here is a link to his other stories.
    http://www.alternet.org/authors/6398/

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    Default Re: Question From Journalist About Utah CCW

    Email sent if you are interested in visiting with an IL resident who has out of state Utah permit.

    DL,

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    Default Re: Question From Journalist About Utah CCW

    I took the class a few months ago but have not applied for the permit as of yet. But there are plenty of guys and gals here who have theirs and I'm sure some will contact you.

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    Default Re: Question From Journalist About Utah CCW

    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    Here is the only article I could find by the OP on a gun related issue. Here is a link to his other stories.
    http://www.alternet.org/authors/6398/
    Not too bad as articles go, but Reporter Dan it looks like you make the same mistake most in the media do... Assume that pro-gun=Republican/Conservative.

    The NRA is pro-gun... no more, no less. They do not hesitate to support pro-gun Democrats, else there would no such thing as Blue-Dog Dems actually making it to office.

    Also there is a basic rift among gun owners. Owning and using rifles and shotguns especially for hunting doesn't automatically make someone understand the concept of self defense that the SCOUTUS reinforced as an inherent right yesterday.

    The Utah permit is not meant for hunters, it for people who accept responsibility for their own personal protection. Something that the SCOTUS has already determined the police do not have a duty to provide. Unlike Charles Schumer and Mayor Daily... Most Americans don't get free body guards or protective services of any sort sucked from the public trough.

    Basically, it all comes down to people wanting to protect themselves across the confusing minefield of states with patchwork reciprocity, a concept that I hope plays out in your article.
    Last edited by twoeggsup; June 29th, 2010 at 04:42 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Question From Journalist About Utah CCW

    I guess I'll give my opinion here on the merits of Utah permits for PA residents, and why high-crime city officials don't like them, and don't like the state preemption.

    PA law preempts all cities and counties from restricting guns, and mandates that any person who qualifies MUST be issued a License to Carry Firearms. Big cities, and counties that are dominated by one city such as Philadelphia or Pittsburgh, prefer the old way of doing things, where licenses can be handed out to favorites, like patronage jobs and no-bid contracts. They chafe at being told to issue licenses to little people who can't do anything for them in return.

    So Philadelphia in particular uses every petty strategy it can to deny people, in violation of state law. This works for the city, because challenging a denial (to the Licenses and Inspections people, not an impartial court) is an expensive process. So a lot of eligible people are denied without proper cause, but they don't appeal it through channels. Instead, they take their clean criminal histories and their absence of statutory prohibitors, and they apply in Utah or Florida, who check them out and grant or deny permits based solely on the law.

    As with any instance of local political hacks being thwarted, the politicians resent the "loophole" of people with clean records being able to sidestep the improper denials. They make wild accusations about people who are denied being "ineligible", when in fact they are often quite eligible under State law. They IMPLY that these out-of-state licenses are the cause of crimes, when in fact there are no examples (that I've heard of) where someone who was ineligible under PA or Federal law was able to obtain an out-of-state license, then committed a crime involving concealed carry or vehicular carry. One example provided was some guy who had a loaded rifle in his car, and the claim that police couldn't do anything because he had an out-of-state license. Well, PA law prohibits carrying loaded rifles in cars, with or without any license, so that example is meaningless. They could arrest me for having a loaded rifle in my car, and I have a PA LTCF.

    Utah licenses are also useful for people who travel across state lines. With some careful prep work, a route can be found that allows any law-abiding person to cross the country while remaining able to defend his family with something more effective than a tire iron. In the absence of any Federal carry licenses (which don't exist except for FBI and other Federal agents), state licenses that are honored in multiple states are the only way for honest Americans to travel interstate without having to rely on the dubious ability of local LEO's to reach them "somewhere on Route 5 about 15 miles past a river" before the bad guys can finish their crimes.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

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    Default Re: Question From Journalist About Utah CCW

    I rather enjoyed the class; it covers carry laws, safety, and basic firearms operations.

    Utah requires fingerprint cards and does a thorough background check.

    There are about twenty states I get to regularly, one of them being Utah, so the Utah license makes perfect sense for me.

    I also have my PA LTCF.
    "...a REPUBLIC, if you can keep it."

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Question From Journalist About Utah CCW

    Quote Originally Posted by twoeggsup View Post
    The Utah permit is not meant for hunters, it for people who accept responsibility for their own personal protection. Something that the SCOTUS has already determined the police do not have a duty to provide.
    Very well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    I guess I'll give my opinion here on the merits of Utah permits for PA residents, and why high-crime city officials don't like them, and don't like the state preemption.
    Only quoting this but a very well stated post. As one who has recently taken the Utah class (and will be mailing the application in this week) you have captured many of the reasons for it - in my case in particular the coverage in states that my PA LTCF doesn't give.

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