Gun, Knives and a dose of reality

[mercop]

First this a snap shot in time, a very small glimpse at one force on force scenario.

The student in black started out with his protectee (guy in red behind him, picture your wife or kid) on his reaction side walking down the street, so far so good.

He is then confronted as he turns the corner by a man with a knife ordering him to give up his wallet. Our good guy uses his reaction side arm to move his protectee behind him but due to the dynamics to the situation the protectee is now moved to the good guys strong side. This causes three things-

His first instinct is to now get his right hand up to reestablish physical control of his protectee, this becomes exaggerated now because instead of being off to his reaction side his protectee is behind him causing him to stumble backwards. As he falls to the rear both hands come out to the side. His right arm also seems to be pinned against his body hampering a possible draw. This is when you will need open hand skills. The bad guy already spooked advances with the knife.

This did not end well for the good guy.

There is no perfect answer to any of this, I post it to show how with step this way or that way the dynamics of a situation can change dramatically.

[NightRocker]

The 7 yard rule applys, you can't win draw vs. knife in hand, (unless gun is in hand).

[unloved]

Originally Posted by NightRocker

The 7 foot rule applys, you can't win draw vs. knife in hand, (unless gun is in hand).

I think you mean 7 yard rule, but I'm not sure where there's a rule in the lessons that can be learned from the Tueller Drill. At Tueller Drill distance (21 feet), you certainly can 'win', even drawing from concealment. The key is to move while drawing and firing.

[NightRocker]

Originally Posted by unloved

I think you mean 7 yard rule, but I'm not sure where there's a rule in the lessons that can be learned from the Tueller Drill. At Tueller Drill distance (21 feet), you certainly can 'win', even drawing from concealment. The key is to move while drawing and firing.

LOL. i got big feet.! thanks for pointing that out. i type faster then i think. your right runnig and putting distance between yourself and the attacker does give you time to draw. just don't stand still at that distance.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by unloved

I think you mean 7 yard rule, but I'm not sure where there's a rule in the lessons that can be learned from the Tueller Drill. At Tueller Drill distance (21 feet), you certainly can 'win', even drawing from concealment. The key is to move while drawing and firing.

actually, carnes and i were playing with this more a couple weeks ago with airsoft.

you can win (every time) even standing still and drawing and shooting.

now, you aren't likely to immediately physically incapacitate the guy, so he may keep charging you and cut you even though you got two rounds into him, so i also strongly advocate moving.

but, both of us were pretty easily able to draw from concealment and get two COM shots off before the attacker got very close at all. we even closed the distance to 5 yards and could still do it.

we were both pretty surprised by the results...but they are what they are. (though, thinking about it, the results aren't that surprising. according to tueller, it takes an average of 1.5 seconds for the attacker to cover the 21 feet. it is not actually terribly difficult to draw from concealment and get 2 rounds COM in under 1.5 seconds at 7 yards. students can generally do this after taking even a single basic tactical pistol class.)

while neither of us are olympic sprinters, we also are not slow by any means, so it isn't just that it was taking us extra long to cover the 21 feet.

also, we were starting with our hands at our sides, not starting from surrender.

and, again, this does not mean don't move. you most certainly should move. this is just an interesting observation...fwiw.

[Hawk]

The flaw in your testing (results rather) is you know (in advance) when the attack is coming and the parameters of the attack.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by Hawk

The flaw in your testing is you know (in advance) when the attack is coming and the parameters of the attack.

we did not know exactly when the attack was coming.

we knew there was a threat standing 21 feet away from us armed with a knife. but, it was entirely up to him when to begin his attack.

this is the premise of the tueller drill as far as i understand it. there is a threat holding a knife (which you know about) 21 feet away from you. if you aren't assuming such a person might attack (and thus being just as prepared for his charge as we were in our testing), you are likely an idiot.

i do agree, though...if you were not actually aware he was a threat and were not in condition orangish-red already, then, absolutely he would be on you before you could draw and fire. but, unless my understanding is flawed, that is not the premise of the tueller drill.

at any rate, it's just an interesting observation...not meant to refute any of the standard conclusions drawn from the tueller drill (i.e., yes, someone 21 feet away with a knife is a deadly threat from which you may not be able to retreat with complete safety, and yes, you should move off the X if he starts charging you.)

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

we did not know exactly when the attack was coming.

we knew there was a threat standing 21 feet away from us armed with a knife. but, it was entirely up to him when to begin his attack.

this is the premise of the tueller drill as far as i understand it. there is a threat holding a knife (which you know about) 21 feet away from you. if you aren't assuming such a person might attack (and thus being just as prepared for his charge as we were in our testing), you are likely an idiot.

i do agree, though...if you were not actually aware he was a threat and were not in condition orangish-red already, then, absolutely he would be on you before you could draw and fire. but, unless my understanding is flawed, that is not the premise of the tueller drill.

at any rate, it's just an interesting observation...not meant to refute any of the standard conclusions drawn from the tueller drill (i.e., yes, someone 21 feet away with a knife is a deadly threat from which you may not be able to retreat with complete safety, and yes, you should move off the X if he starts charging you.)

I see. you were just trying to "beat" the rule. Even though you didn't know the exact moment of attack you had a pretty good idea give or take seconds -right? Like you said you were already in C-Orange-Red. I saw a variation of this drill back in the mid 80's when I was heavily involved in the Martial Arts. At that time it was knife vs empty hand with regards to threat & combat distances.

[mercop]

That is why you do both drills and scenarios. We just lost so many students when we had random people on the street attack them with a screwdriver.- George

[Hawk]

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suNKWwPnkJ0

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdJAgfO2GQc