Gun, Knives and a dose of reality

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by AJG

It is sort of my view that almost every gun problem that does not involve me conducting an ambush involves moving.

a wise view i think.

but, an interesting question does arise with regard to the tueller drill.

you are facing a threat that is 5 to 7 yards away and is armed with a knife and you are aware of it. he starts to charge. (this is the tueller drill).

1. should you move first and then draw and shoot while moving?

2. move first and not draw and shoot at all (just keep running full speed away)?

3. draw and shoot and then move?

prior to really experimenting with it, i would have said "1 or 2, but definitely not 3."

now, i say "3". draw and get a round or two into him...then move off the line of attack.

my reason for this is that i really want to get some bullets in the guy in case he can run faster than me or i trip over something. george's method of one handed shooting while moving off the X does work. but, frankly, i still feel more comfortable/get better results (meaning more consistently getting hits closer to the center of the thoracic cavity rather than just somewhere on the torso)* using two hands and getting a better flash sight picture if i have time.

so far, my experimenting in FoF tells me i do have time in the situation presented in the standard tueller drill. in the situation presented in the OP, i don't have time...i view that situation as a hand-to-hand problem first. upon creating some space, i think drawing and shooting one handed would be a good idea there.



*of course, i have been practicing two handed sighted shooting much longer than i have been practicing george's method, so that undoubtedly factors in.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by mercop

Out of everything I have seen and or tried for defending against the person charging with a knife the absolute best results have come from the good guy charging the bad guy at a hard 45 degree to his (attacker's right). It is hard for a charging opponent to change directions and harder to track.

Another key is using the reaction side hand to block/negate/deflect the attack.- George

an interesting approach. i'll have to play around with that one as well. thanks for the idea.

[Hawk]

I think people get confused regarding the Tueller drill. It's not a realistic/practical scenario you should be focusing your training on. It is only a tool used to demonstrate that an attack can be executed at that distance and the attacker can cover that ground and still beat your attempt to draw and fire. I personally would not waste much of my time practicing for that particular scenario. It's much more likely the attack will be a surprise and the attacker will already be less than a step or two away. I understand that LRT was just toying with the drill.

As for most confrontations which involve a knife vs gun or vs empty hand, you must face the fact that you are going to get cut or stabbed. The question is: Will you be able to "stop" the attacker before he incapacitates you?

[AJG]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

you are facing a threat that is 5 to 7 yards away and is armed with a knife and you are aware of it. he starts to charge. (this is the tueller drill).

1. should you move first and then draw and shoot while moving?

2. move first and not draw and shoot at all (just keep running full speed away)?

3. draw and shoot and then move?

prior to really experimenting with it, i would have said "1 or 2, but definitely not 3."

now, i say "3". draw and get a round or two into him...then move off the line of attack.

my reason for this is that i really want to get some bullets in the guy in case he can run faster than me or i trip over something. george's method of one handed shooting while moving off the X does work. but, frankly, i still feel more comfortable/get better results (meaning more consistently getting hits closer to the center of the thoracic cavity rather than just somewhere on the torso)* using two hands and getting a better flash sight picture if i have time...

I have been trained, and I practice, moving off the X as I draw and shoot, and to keep moving and until the threat is neutralized and/or I am safe.

I agree that I can shoot more accurately two handed and stationary, but I also believe that the combination of my movement and rounds coming in his direction will put me well inside the attacker's OODA loop by seriously disorienting him and perhaps causing him to break off the attack and seek safety. I think this is worth what loss of accuracy I experience shooting while moving.

Additionally, I operate with the assumption that in real life I am not going to have the advantage of realizing the threat is there. My working assumption is that the threat is going to look like just another guy waiting for a bus until I am within 20 feet, and probably less. In that case, I am already behind the power curve, so to speak, and whether I can draw and shoot first and then move may be a bit problematic, and I don't want to add the extra step of having to ask myself whether this is, in fact, a situation where I can draw and shoot before moving. I want the same basic drill for every scenario, to the extent that is possible. That drill, to me, is move and draw and start shooting as one movement. If I have to, I can always stop moving. If I don't move immediately upon recognizing the threat, I may not have the luxury of starting it later.

Just my $.02.

[mercop]

Hawk, all good points.

Early on in my training I thought the "expect to get cut/stabbed" stuff meant that no matter how good your training was it would not matter you would get cut or stabbed. Now, from some experience, training and research I know that it is because people fail to see even a bright blue box cutter at 5 yards away much less a gray box cutter, five feet away in the dark. You will likely feel it first. Based on that here are my goals when teaching Spontaneous Attack Survival for Edged Weapons.

Use Constant Tactical Positioning and Principle Based Responses to put yourself in the best possible position to-
Not be cut
Be cut as little as possible
Gain control of the weapon hand, either extend it all the way and destroy the elbow (preferred) or collapse it all the way and slam your attacker into the ground for vertical surface to facilitate Central Nervous System disruption.

I invite people to attend our Edged Weapon Survival Course on 7/8 NOV in Quakertown to see what responses have a high rate of failure and success. The class will include force on force and transition to the pistol with force on force airsoft scenarios and drills. We have some MCS Alumni here on PFOA that can vouch for the training.- George

[AJG]

Originally Posted by mercop

Out of everything I have seen and or tried for defending against the person charging with a knife the absolute best results have come from the good guy charging the bad guy at a hard 45 degree to his (attacker's right). It is hard for a charging opponent to change directions and harder to track.

Another key is using the reaction side hand to block/negate/deflect the attack.- George

Clarify for me please. When you say charging at a 45 degree angle to his right, I am a little confused. "Charging" gives me an image of moving right at him. I am assuming you mean move toward him, at an angle, so if all the shooting and stuff stopped, you would pass him on his right side. Is that correct? If so, why right? does it matter which hand he has the knife in or whether you are right or left handed?

The method you describe (at least as I interpret it) is generally what I do, although I am prepared to do it to either side, as I think you have to be because the environment may not permit you to move right or left. I'm also a bit ambivalent about right or left. I am right handed and if I move to my right (his left) I am able to keep both hands on my gun longer than I can moving to my left when I have to shoot one handed pretty much the entire movement. On the other hand, moving to my right will, at some point, force me to change my gun to my left hand or my body will naturally turn and I will be going backward.

All of that said, I have a sense (never actually tested) that it is harder for someone to move his attack to his outside than his inside. By that I mean, if you are attacking me with a gun, and if you are right handed, it is easier for you to follow my movement if I move to your left, than if I move outside you to your right. Then again, that may for whatever reason just be a more comfortable movement for me and others may be different.

[LittleRedToyota]

i'm not so sure the tueller drill is so unlikely to materialize in real life. i've seen somewhat similar situations actually happen (including being attacked by a guy with a knife who started out at least close to 5 yards away from me...maybe a bit closer. i did not carry a gun back then, though, so i did not even have the option of drawing and shooting anyway).

otherwise, though, i agree with you hawk and think this has been a very good discussion in general.

btw, i have taken mercop's class, and i do recommend it.

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

i'm not so sure the tueller drill is so unlikely to materialize in real life. i've seen somewhat similar situations actually happen (including being attacked by a guy with a knife who started out at least close to 5 yards away from me...maybe a bit closer. i did not carry a gun back then, though, so i did not even have the option of drawing and shooting anyway).

otherwise, though, i agree with you hawk and think this has been a very good discussion in general.

btw, i have taken mercop's class, and i do recommend it.

My POV is from an average citizens POV with regards to "likely" scenarios.
Professionals engaged in police work, combat, security, or something along those lines may have a better chance of running into a situation similar to the Tueller drill.

My point is that you can't train effectively for every possible scenario, you need to decide/investigate what are the most common situations I will probably need to defend myself against, and focus most of your training (& time) on those.

BTW, these are only my common sense observations. I am far from being any kind of expert.


Agreed! Good discussion!

[mercop]

Yes towards him, you will actually end up passed him. Why right? Because 93% of people in the world are right handed. That means 93% of the time you will be going to your attackers non reaction side. Also because the shooter is generally right handed and right handed people usually step off with their left foot powering off the right.

This is also the reason why drill and ceremony in the military is based on all right handed soldiers. The other 7% you deal with using overwhelming aggression. - George

[unloved]

I like overwhelming aggression. Good for lots of stuff.