Gun, Knives and a dose of reality

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by mercop

That is why you do both drills and scenarios. We just lost so many students when we had random people on the street attack them with a screwdriver.- George

absolutely.

the standard tueller drill--or at least my understanding of it (the threat is already recognized) and a scenario of walking down a street where a threat is not yet recognized are two entirely different situations/dynamics.

[unloved]

My understanding (possibly erroneous) is that the sole purpose of the Tueller Drill is to show that an attacker armed with a contact weapon can cover 21 feet fast enough to be considered an immediate, deadly threat.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by Hawk

I see. you were just trying to "beat" the rule. Even though you didn't know the exact moment of attack you had a pretty good idea give or take seconds -right?

well, yeah...but that's what the tueller drill is.

we were just running the tueller drill.

a scenario where you are unaware of the threat or empty handed or at contact distance or whatever is not the tueller drill...though they are, of course, great scenarios to practice.

that first video you posted is a good argument for drawing and shooting as well...just running away did not work so well.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by unloved

My understanding (possibly erroneous) is that the sole purpose of the Tueller Drill is to show that an attacker armed with a contact weapon can cover 21 feet fast enough to be considered an immediate, deadly threat.

yes. i agree.

i didn't even really have a point other than to say that you actually can get rounds into the guy before he gets to you.

if i do have a point, i guess it is that, given that straight up running away can lead to problems (as demonstrated in Hawk's first video), drawing and shooting first (and then moving off the X as he closes) might be actually be a good strategy.

but, as has been pointed out, this is assuming you are aware of the threat and ready to respond.

[AJG]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

you can win (every time) even standing still and drawing and shooting.

now, you aren't likely to immediately physically incapacitate the guy, so he may keep charging you and cut you even though you got two rounds into him...

That cut may kill you if your unlucky. That's not a win, no matter how dead the other guy is.

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

...so i also strongly advocate moving.

I'd never argue with doing that.

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

but, both of us were pretty easily able to draw from concealment and get two COM shots off before the attacker got very close at all. we even closed the distance to 5 yards and could still do it.

Could you have done it if you were walking down the street having a conversation with your wife or a friend and didn't know it was coming till you saw him moving at you from the bus stop five feet away?

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

according to tueller, it takes an average of 1.5 seconds for the attacker to cover the 21 feet. it is not actually terribly difficult to draw from concealment and get 2 rounds COM in under 1.5 seconds at 7 yards. students can generally do this after taking even a single basic tactical pistol class.)

But again, in the class or doing the drill, you know what is going to happen, or at least you are pretty certain that something is going to happen. How many of us walk around the streets THAT alert? I always try to be aware of my surroundings and what is going on around me, but walking through Philadelphia on my way to a train to go home, there are people standing all over the place and you can't pay attention to every one of them to the degree that I can pay attention to the "bad guy" on the other side of a FOF drill. How much time does that cost someone?

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

and, again, this does not mean don't move. you most certainly should move. this is just an interesting observation...fwiw.

Agreed.

[AJG]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

i do agree, though...if you were not actually aware he was a threat and were not in condition orangish-red already, then, absolutely he would be on you before you could draw and fire.

How many of us practice and train for that reality? I often think we (those of us who carry guns in general) become way to focused on training with our gun, and lose sight of the fact that many situations, such as this, are not "gun problems", at least until you get them under control some other way.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by AJG

That cut may kill you if your unlucky. That's not a win, no matter how dead the other guy is.

yeah. i should have put "win" in quotes.

as for the rest...

the tueller drill is what it is...and is not what it is not.

in the tueller drill, you are not walking down the street unaware of a specific threat. rather, you are facing a known and specific threat.

obviously this is very different from a scenario of just walking down the street.

both should be trained for. lessons from one should not be inappropriately applied to the other.

arguments among people who are actually in agreement are kinda funny.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by AJG

How many of us practice and train for that reality? I often think we (those of us who carry guns in general) become way to focused on training with our gun, and lose sight of the fact that many situations, such as this, are not "gun problems", at least until you get them under control some other way.

in general, i completely agree.

and specifically i agree with regards to the situation george posted in the OP.

on the other hand, i would argue that the situation presented in the tueller drill actually should be treated as a gun problem (albeit one that does involve moving). i did not always view it that way, though...until i actually played around with it in FoF. then i realized that, in that particular situation, drawing and shooting and *then* moving might actually be a good idea. moving first can certainly work as well...as long as you do not trip.

at closer distances or in situations where you do not recognize the threat ahead of time, then, imho, moving first is your only real chance (or defending against the knife attack empty handed...which is a crap shoot, imho, even for the well-trained....though it is still better than just straight trying to draw at contact distance or if you are not aware of the threat until he has already started to charge you.)

[AJG]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

...on the other hand, i would argue that the situation presented in the tueller drill actually should be treated as a gun problem (albeit one that does involve moving).

It is sort of my view that almost every gun problem that does not involve me conducting an ambush involves moving.

[mercop]

Out of everything I have seen and or tried for defending against the person charging with a knife the absolute best results have come from the good guy charging the bad guy at a hard 45 degree to his (attacker's right). It is hard for a charging opponent to change directions and harder to track.

Another key is using the reaction side hand to block/negate/deflect the attack.- George