Round Chambering Techniques

[Lycanthrope]

I watched 3 of those and didn't see an issue. I know I push the release while I'm rotating and I'm rotating fast so that helps snap the mag out.

I'll play around with the G35 later and take a look at my angles.


Lycanhastogotoworknowthrope

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by synergy

They got a stoppage, and just stared at their pistol...expecting an intense stare to fix it for them.

Either technique requires deliberate, conscious thought to apply. I think people maintaining the ability to think through problems is just as big of a speed bump as "decreased fine motor skills"... if not a bigger one, when confronted with an overwhelming amount of stress.

I think you hit on an important issue in addition to just raw speed. All I really know is what I was taught and what I was taught was don't diagnose a problem with the gun and keep everything as consistent as possible. Far as dealing with chambering a round, we were taught the "power stoke" (same as what you call HOT). The idea as I understand it was to avoid having the mind go off "into the white" at a bad time. No stinkin' thinkin' -- just get the thing working again.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia

I think you hit on an important issue in addition to just raw speed. All I really know is what I was taught and what I was taught was don't diagnose a problem with the gun and keep everything as consistent as possible. Far as dealing with chambering a round, we were taught the "power stoke" (same as what you call HOT). The idea as I understand it was to avoid having the mind go off "into the white" at a bad time. No stinkin' thinkin' -- just get the thing working again.

I think it's a nice plan...but we all know how good plans are.

I don't think there is any way to eliminate thinking from your actions in a gunfight. What if you drop the mag? What if you fumble your power-stroke or HOT? What if you take a hit and need to start doing things with one hand?

Its nice to say that you can go on auto-pilot and "tap rack" your way though anything that might come up....but what the BG is doing, what is behind the BG, where the nearest cover is....you need to be gathering and processing information.

The most successful guys at doing this are the ones who train the hell out of it, and get shot at pretty often. They have no problem with staying cool and thinking through any of this stuff...as that stress no-longer overwhelms them. They're just completely focused on destroying their target.

I think the more stress you can train with...the more likely you'll be able to handle the stress of a lethal encounter. There really is no good way to induce that amount of stress in training...but the closer you can get to it, the better.

But I just don't see how you can go through a gun-fight without thinking.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by synergy

I think it's a nice plan...but we all know how good plans are.

I don't think there is any way to eliminate thinking from your actions in a gunfight. What if you drop the mag? What if you fumble your power-stroke or HOT? What if you take a hit and need to start doing things with one hand?

Its nice to say that you can go on auto-pilot and "tap rack" your way though anything that might come up....but what the BG is doing, what is behind the BG, where the nearest cover is....you need to be gathering and processing information.

The most successful guys at doing this are the ones who train the hell out of it, and get shot at pretty often. They have no problem with staying cool and thinking through any of this stuff...as that stress no-longer overwhelms them. They're just completely focused on destroying their target.

I think the more stress you can train with...the more likely you'll be able to handle the stress of a lethal encounter. There really is no good way to induce that amount of stress in training...but the closer you can get to it, the better.

But I just don't see how you can go through a gun-fight without thinking.

It's easy. j/k

First we have to define "thinking in a gunfight".

There are three aspects to the combat triad. Mindset (aka mental conditioning) has much to do with "They're just completely focused on destroying their target". An adjunct to Mindset is the application of tactics which is defined by Webster as "the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end". This is the "thinking" part of a gunfight.

However, until one has achieved "unconscious competence" with regard to the other two aspects of the combat triad (marksmanship and gun handling), our brain will not be free to "think and apply tactics".

As Col. Cooper describes the Combat Triad, it permits the necessary performance balance of speed, power and accuracy required to win a lethal confrontation.

That's why this discussion, while interesting, has little bearing in the real world. Lycan mentioned that 0.2 seconds is an eternity. It may very well be. But in what context? I submit that agonizing over "optimizing" for a couple of tenths of a second is contrary to the Colonels point about the proper balance of speed, power and accuracy.

Tactics wins gunfights. Defining how fast is "fast enough" is another thread.

[unloved]

I can't add much to this discussion. I'm left handed, so I always use the HOT method.

I do want to say that this

Originally Posted by synergy

1) fights that start out with non-lethal force, can have you breaking bones in your hands, delivering blows to the enemy....once weapons come out (as is often the case...where levels of force rise as the confrontation progresses) you could have some swelling, numbness and pain in your hands.

is exactly why I train to avoid closed fist strikes, especially to the face and head.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by synergy

Now, the same thing done with the pistol...and running HOT versus slide release...the difference was about .2 seconds.

I question this number. How was it tested? Where was the off-hand during this?

IMO, the only context that matters is in the process of reloading. But in this process, your off hand is already involved and on site, having just loaded the spare magazine in place. For it to then rack, from that already-in-transit position, should not take 0.2 seconds more than having to adjust the strong hand grip so as to flick the slide stop.

[dgg9]

Some other thoughts:

1. You want to avoid mentally shifting gears in Condition Black. Using the slide stop is an ADDITIONAL technique to remember to use -- everything that needs to be done can be achieved by racking. There is a huge benefit is reducing the number of options and choices you have to make when doing manipulations under pressure.

2. You want to avoid physically shifting gears in Condition Black. When you reload and rack, the strong hand maintains a strong, unchanging grip throughout. You do everything with the off-hand, and you don't need to think about, or switch attention to, the strong hand. Using the slide stop means you have to use the off-hand to load the magazine, then switch attention to and shift your strong hand grip to flick the slide stop release, then continue.

3. What you won't see often at the range is your hands ice cold, or sweaty, or bloody, or all thumbs. That's why relatively fine motor skills like manipulating the slide stop seem ok to do when not in a real fight. But that's why the emphasis on gross motor skills. I'm relatively unimpressed by the "it worked well at the range" rationale.

IMO, in Condition Back, you want fewer fine movements, fewer decisions and thought processes, and fewer switches in attention and in what-hand-does-what.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by dgg9

I question this number. How was it tested? Where was the off-hand during this?

IMO, the only context that matters is in the process of reloading. But in this process, your off hand is already involved and on site, having just loaded the spare magazine in place. For it to then rack, from that already-in-transit position, should not take 0.2 seconds more than having to adjust the strong hand grip so as to flick the slide stop.

Here is one of the shooters doing some SS reloads.


Here is some footage of guys running the slide...and that's all they practice.


I expected a larger difference in time.
You first have to feel the magazine stop moving in the magwell, identifying that it is now seated.
Move the hand back and over top of the slide
Grab the slide
Pull the slide rearwards
Move the hand forward and reacquire grip.

Versus
Feel the mag stop, identifying that it is seated.
Reacquire grip while strong hang (or weak hand) thumbs the release.

I'm very surprised that there was ONLY .2 seconds difference.

The strong hand thumb is often right next to the slide stop anyway...and it can be swiped while the weak hand is re-acquiring grip, or the pistol is moving back out on target.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by dgg9

your off hand is already involved and on site

depends on your definition of "on site", i guess. immediately after having seated a mag, your off hand is "on site" to reacquire a grip on the gun. it is not what i would call "on site" for racking the slide, though.

to rack the slide, you have to take it out of position to reacquire a grip and move it up and over the top of the gun. then, after racking the slide, you have to move it back down to where it was to start with.

it is a lot of extra movement. does it really matter in an actual gunfight? i dunno...but the fact remains that it is a lot of extra movement.

For it to then rack, from that already-in-transit position, should not take 0.2 seconds more than having to adjust the strong hand grip so as to flick the slide stop.

for me, at least, there is no adjusting the strong hand grip to flick the slide stop. my strong hand grip does not need to change to hit the slide stop lever with my thumb--it is already right there perfectly positioned under my thumb. hitting it is just like flicking the safety on a 1911.

that's why i eventually decided to diverge from my formal MT training in this regard. i basically have to purposely avoid hitting the slide stop with my strong thumb to use the overhand technique instead. eventually i just decided that didn't really make any sense to me. i do not seem to be at all affected by the supposed reliability issues with hitting the slide stop lever, so why give up the benefits of that technique?

if my hands and my G17s fit together differently, i might still be always using the overhand technique, though.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by dgg9

Some other thoughts:

1. You want to avoid mentally shifting gears in Condition Black. Using the slide stop is an ADDITIONAL technique to remember to use -- everything that needs to be done can be achieved by racking. There is a huge benefit is reducing the number of options and choices you have to make when doing manipulations under pressure.

As I mentioned, there are steps that you need to take in order to grasp the slide and rip it too. You need to move your hand, grab, then pull. Contrast this to "moving your thumb down" as you reacquire your grip

2. You want to avoid physically shifting gears in Condition Black. When you reload and rack, the strong hand maintains a strong, unchanging grip throughout. You do everything with the off-hand, and you don't need to think about, or switch attention to, the strong hand. Using the slide stop means you have to use the off-hand to load the magazine, then switch attention to and shift your strong hand grip to flick the slide stop release, then continue.

No it's not, you have to change your grip to press the magazine release.
You COULD also use your weak hand to press the release...which nullifies this argument, also.

3. What you won't see often at the range is your hands ice cold, or sweaty, or bloody, or all thumbs. That's why relatively fine motor skills like manipulating the slide stop seem ok to do when not in a real fight. But that's why the emphasis on gross motor skills. I'm relatively unimpressed by the "it worked well at the range" rationale.

As I've mentioned numerous times...grabbing the slide is a fine motor skill. You can fumble it just as you can fumble thumbing the slide stop.

With bloody hands, you might slip off the back of the slide before you pull it hard enough. And the consequence of missing the SS and hitting it on the second try, didn't result in the gun being down longer than ripping the slide in the first place.

IMO, in Condition Back, you want fewer fine movements, fewer decisions and thought processes, and fewer switches in attention and in what-hand-does-what.

I don't see where this argument plays in. Sweeping a lever is no more of a "fine movement" than pressing a trigger, pressing a magazine release, or grasping and pulling a slide.

WRT what hand does what...you can release the slide with your weak hand too, from slide lock... if you think having both of your hands doing something is too complicated for you and your intended application.