Round Chambering Techniques

[Helter]

I use the HOT method, for the simple reason that it reduces the number of steps/actions that I have to remember. If the gun isn't firing, tap rack bang.
If I have to reload, once I eject the spent mag, it's the same thing. tap rack bang.
It's something that I've been thinking about though, because to be honest I don't have to do either. When I slap a new mag in my Glock, the slide releases. I still rack the slide, just to reinforce the combined action, but that's the only reason. Once I slap a mag in, I'm gtg.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

.2 seconds is an eternity. People would swap a testicle for a .2 faster drawstroke.....

Now on the AR....so you get two chances and still can end up as good as the charging handle? How much faster is it if you don't miss the bolt release?

Which technique did they have more experience with.

Lycancoorelationdoesn'tmeancausationthrope

Question 1: The timer showed that 2 chances at pressing the paddle was just about the same time, or a hair over. I think they had 15 runs each way. With 1 fumble with running the charging handle...5 fumbles on the paddle where you had to take a second attempt to release it.

How much faster w/o fumbles? Not more than .15 or so, for these guys.

Question 2: They both have a lot of rounds on each. I know H. runs HOT when he's coaching Insights classes (as I learned today) but runs all his personal reloads via SS...he uses a G19. T., I'm not 100% sure on...but I've seen him use both., he uses a 1911 type pistol.

They are probably both more practiced with SS usage. They've both taken classes where they used both techniques, though.

Here's H's reload via SS....he's not too shabby...




One thing we touched on...was that the act of chambering the new round is only a FRACTION of the reloading process.

You still have to:
Recognize that the weapon needs to be reloaded
Break grip
Drop magazine
Acquire new magazine
Insert new magazine
Chamber a round
Reacquire grip
Re-obtain a sight picture
Break the shot.


So, time wise...chambering a round maybe only constitutes 10-20% of the time where the gun is down between shots. So, improvements in time in a part of the process, get drowned out by the other ~85% of the process.

As the shooter improves and irons out the rest of the process, difference in time between the two chambering techniques may grow. A shooter who is slow to get the new mag into the magwell, or slow to re-acquire their sights, may see an even smaller improvement in overall speed, even after selecting a chambering process that is significantly faster.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by d90king

Sometimes using very advanced shooters can give you a false barometer if you catch my drift. I think when teaching you should try and use the KISS principle when possible because very few shooters will have the skill of the guys comparing a couple tenths to determine that "fastest' methodology.

Agreed. However there is a balance between "KISS" and using your equipment to its fullest advantage. For example, you can take a KISS approach to carbine stances, and use the same stance as your isos pistol stance...but you'll loose some of the advantage of reaching out on the handguards and managing recoil better (and thus getting better splits).

I have seen it on both sides though... You will see guys miss the paddle but you will also see guys not fully charge the rifle or have there hand slide off the pistol... The same applies for charging an AK, do I go over or under?!?!?...

Agreed. There were fumbles with BOTH techniques.

When going to do HOT...you have to bring the hand up and over the slide, then grab it, then press it rearwards. Under stress, your hand may continue past the slide, before you obtained a tight enough grip to actually move the slide...you have just fumbled the "more secure technique", and are having an "oh shit" moment. Having the mental agility to process this and apply corrective action goes out the window with stress, too.....just like everyone seems to agree that manual dexterity decreases.

Contrast needing to move the hand back over top of the slide, then re-grab, then re-yanking it....to re-swiping the thumb. A fumble when using the control is faster to fix than a fumble grabbing the slide/ charging handle.

Keep your shooters skill set in mind when comparing here...

Yep, gotta do that. But I think both novices and experts are capable of doing both actions. The reliability of the techniques will probably correlate with their skill level and amount of practice...but this concept applies to both techniques. If you suck and don't practice...you'll probably suck at both.

The topic then turns to...is it better to learn a basic technique, train that...then once you have trained for a while....overhaul that technique, and start over with an improved method....or train the method which offers an advantage from the beginning?

I sometimes think we can get caught up in fractions when we should be looking at what way is more idiot proof. I think anytime you can reduce using fine motor skill you are always better off. But in the same breath you must find a method that allows you the quickest route getting back into the fight which all starts by getting a round chambered AND getting your weapon back into its proper grip quickly...

But ultimately what does "idiot proof" mean? I think it means "gets the gun back up and running." The reason to select a "more reliable" technique, is to not bugger it up, and spend more time fixing it. But hypothetically speaking...when you run a 30% chance of screwing up...but knowing that you can FIX that screw up and STILL do it in the same time span as the more "sure fire technique"...then why select the more bombproof technique..when you have a 70% chance at being faster, and a 5% chance at being slower using the "less secure" technique?

I think other variables are more important in deciding which to use.

Once again keep you are using very advanced shooters as test dummies... I could care less about a few tenths if whatever the method I choose allows consistency time and time again. Keeping in mind there is the argument we have discussed that much of this should be done behind cover...

Uh huh...but why is consistency important? Because it delivers less chance of messing up, which means less time spent correcting the error. When you can correct a potential error in the same time period...where's the harm?

To many factors to really address in one post... I will say people should dress ready for a gun fight if they are armed and prepared for one. Gloves are something that I wont use if carrying...

Great post and thread by the way. I think it is great we are finally having some intelligent discussion on tactics lately...

Yeah...lots going on...just interested in digging in and learning. We'll see what comes from it all.

[Lycanthrope]

Originally Posted by synergy

So, time wise...chambering a round maybe only constitutes 10-20% of the time where the gun is down between shots. So, improvements in time in a part of the process, get drowned out by the other ~85% of the process.
.

Indeed.

Most of the speed in a reload is getting the "stupid"/weak hand moving. As soon as you feel slidelock, you need to haul ass with the weak hand. In comparison, you have all day with the strong hand to dump the mag.

When I show shooters how to do 1.5 second reloads, the most important part is to get the shooter to get the hand to the mag as soon as the gun runs dry. Next is to do that while tilting the gun with the strong hand in one motion. Next is to do the same thing while hitting the mag release........

Walk the mag in, slide teh weak hand into grip position with a bit of height added and you hit the slide stop/release. Next you do that while hitting the slide stop/release while rotating the gun back to target/eye focus.

Lycantenthsmatterthrope

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

Indeed.

Most of the speed in a reload is getting the "stupid"/weak hand moving. As soon as you feel slidelock, you need to haul ass with the weak hand. In comparison, you have all day with the strong hand to dump the mag.

When I show shooters how to do 1.5 second reloads, the most important part is to get the shooter to get the hand to the mag as soon as the gun runs dry. Next is to do that while tilting the gun with the strong hand in one motion. Next is to do the same thing while hitting the mag release........

Walk the mag in, slide teh weak hand into grip position with a bit of height added and you hit the slide stop/release. Next you do that while hitting the slide stop/release while rotating the gun back to target/eye focus.

Lycantenthsmatterthrope

Yeah, we don't need a Training forum.....

Those are some good tips.

My reloads hover in the 2.0-2.5 range....and I'm sure I'm more at 2.5-3.0 now that I've had to take so much time off.

Today was the first day I've been able to shoot much pistol, in a while. My fundamentals were still pretty sharp...but my speed and efficiency has certainly dropped from what it used to be.

All this talk has me wanting to take up IPSC. Damnit...last thing I need is a new money-pit!

[Lycanthrope]

You don't need IPSC. Just RIP THE DAMN WEAK HAND TO THE MAG!

Really.

Honestly, when I see shooters being taught reloads they are often taught in ONE motion. Break.....it...down.

Shoot a round and snap the weak hand to mag.

Shoot a round and snap the weak hand to mag while rotating the gun just to where you can see the magwell.

Shoot a round and snap the weak hand to the mag while rotating the gun and hitting the mag release.

Shoot a round and snap the weak hand to the mag while rotating the gun and hitting the mag release....watch the mag in and then rotate the weak handin to normal grip or to the Slide stop/release.

Shoot a round and snap the weak hand to the mag while rotating the gun and hitting the mag release....watch the mag in and then rotate the weak handin to normal grip or to the Slide stop/release.....but after the mag is in.......start looking to your target....you will find you will align just like a draw stroke.

Do this in dry fire at a 7 yard target and tell me you aren't under 2 seconds within an hour.

Lycanchallengethrope

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

You don't need IPSC. Just RIP THE DAMN WEAK HAND TO THE MAG!

Really.

Honestly, when I see shooters being taught reloads they are often taught in ONE motion. Break.....it...down.

Shoot a round and snap the weak hand to mag.

Shoot a round and snap the weak hand to mag while rotating the gun just to where you can see the magwell.

Shoot a round and snap the weak hand to the mag while rotating the gun and hitting the mag release.

Shoot a round and snap the weak hand to the mag while rotating the gun and hitting the mag release....watch the mag in and then rotate the weak handin to normal grip or to the Slide stop/release.

Shoot a round and snap the weak hand to the mag while rotating the gun and hitting the mag release....watch the mag in and then rotate the weak handin to normal grip or to the Slide stop/release.....but after the mag is in.......start looking to your target....you will find you will align just like a draw stroke.

Do this in dry fire at a 7 yard target and tell me you aren't under 2 seconds within an hour.

Lycanchallengethrope

Will do, and soon!

thanks.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

Shoot a round and snap the weak hand to the mag while rotating the gun and hitting the mag release.

This is the one thing I question. I try to let the magazine drop free before I rotate the pistol in. I've had mags stick in the mag well a lot less this way.

I'm wondering what the difference in time is between the two variations of turn/press simultaneously...and press then turn. I might have the run a timer on something else now.

[Lycanthrope]

Originally Posted by synergy

This is the one thing I question. I try to let the magazine drop free before I rotate the pistol in. I've had mags stick in the mag well a lot less this way.

I'm wondering what the difference in time is between the two variations of turn/press simultaneously...and press then turn. I might have the run a timer on something else now.

My first response is to fix your carry mags.........

BUT...break it down.....

First off, you don't need to bring the reload close to your body. You just need to see the magwell opening. Any movement that is not needed for 99%+ success is wasted movement.

If you REALLY SNAP the weak hand to the mag when the gun runs dry......and that is your priority.....then you have what feels like ALL DAY to dump the mag.

Many shooters will flip the gun to the outside and then back in to dislodge an empty mag......and you still have lots of time.

Get...the...hand...to.....the......new....mag.

LycanFASTthrope

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

My first response is to fix your carry mags.........

I don't think that's the issue, so much as it's the timing and angle that they're falling out at.

What do you think?
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http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=...72/6cCf_bJjvbg
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=...68/oTHyxLecYaU
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http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=...40/TlhFlKEyi4Q
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http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=...36/uyqlo9Wt0S4
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=...24/fnUY2Rh4-Y8


Just curious what patterns you see...other than me dropping the pistol too far down.

synlikesfreeadviceergy


I know I kept bringing the pistol down below my natural line of sight...these vids are a little old.....but still curious as to what you see.