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  #31 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: Lets talk about wadcutters...

Please:

Don't confuse any of the comments that I just made to regard anything at all having to do with "Factory Loaded Ammunition".

I was referring only to handloaded bullets (projectiles - "heads"), what just I mentioned above has nothing at all to do with "Factory" ammo.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 09:15 AM
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Default Re: Lets talk about wadcutters...

I'm thinking that equating what a wadcutter does to paper with what a wadcutter will do to flesh is a leap of logic at best. I'm thinking paper is a whole different medium than flesh and will react significantly differently. I think a big part of the accuracy of a wadcutter comes from the fact that it is barrel shaped and as such it's shoulder is the full length of the projectile....this allows maximum contact with the barrel lands and imparts better stability that a more rounded nose projectile. I would think that as a defensive round, a wadcutter would only be slightly better than hardball and that slight advantage would come from the flat front reducing penetration and also less chance of ricochet in the event of a missed shot.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: Lets talk about wadcutters...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftloose View Post
I'm thinking that equating what a wadcutter does to paper with what a wadcutter will do to flesh is a leap of logic at best. I'm thinking paper is a whole different medium than flesh and will react significantly differently. I think a big part of the accuracy of a wadcutter comes from the fact that it is barrel shaped and as such it's shoulder is the full length of the projectile....this allows maximum contact with the barrel lands and imparts better stability that a more rounded nose projectile. I would think that as a defensive round, a wadcutter would only be slightly better than hardball and that slight advantage would come from the flat front reducing penetration and also less chance of ricochet in the event of a missed shot.
I guess there is more than one 'opinion' on the topic then.

Here's another 'opinion' (well, sort of):

Quote:
Where a rounded profile will shove vitals aside or glance off bone, the edge of a wadcutter or semi-wadcutter will slice or dig in. When I was shooting bowling pins, a popular bullet with revolver shooters was the "lead pencil": a 230-grain .358-diameter full wadcutter. It did not glance off of bowling pins.
From an article entitled Wicked Wadcutters in Handguns Magazine:

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunitio...utters_200901/

I couldn't find the author or the date - but (honestly), I didn't look real, real hard.
.

Added: Actually, I don't think the wadcutter would so much as "slice", but would more so "CRUSH" through soft tissue.
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Last edited by Bruce; March 19th, 2010 at 09:35 AM.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 09:50 AM
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Default Re: Lets talk about wadcutters...

Ok................now make a groove in the wadcutter face as Cirillo did and the effects of it butterflying open during penetration.......again he didn't want the mushrooming effect.......what a nasty large wound this would create.....ie. his pics in the book.
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Old March 19th, 2010, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: Lets talk about wadcutters...

Quote:
Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
Ok................now make a groove in the wadcutter face as Cirillo did and the effects of it butterflying open during penetration.......again he didn't want the mushrooming effect.......what a nasty large wound this would create.....ie. his pics in the book.
Can you post that pic??

Thanks

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: Lets talk about wadcutters...

From the same article, Bruce...
"Are wadcutter bullets good for defense? If the most robust hollowpoints are "too much" in recoil, a wadcutter is certainly better than a lead roundnose."

The reality is that article is mostly talking about 2" snubnose revolvers and the lack of enough velocity due to the short barrel to allow modern JHP bullets to expand properly thus making them no better than round-nose hardball. Also, that JHP's with enough pressure to create the needed velocity might be uncomfortable to shoot from a lighweight snubbie. In such an instance, wadcutters may be a reasonable alternative. In my opinion, with the numbers cited in the article, the penetration of the wadcutters was exessive, to say the least. And that is contrary to what I thought would be the case.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: Lets talk about wadcutters...

just as an observation, i've seen how JHPs in .38 act when passing through glass/hard objects. i shot a TV once, using a factory load Hornady, i forget the weight. the range was about 20 feet or so. the jacket fully separated from the lead core, and had fragmented a bit. the core itself had flattened out to a disc about 3/4" across; i almost didn't realize it was the core, because it had flattened out so much. it looked almost like a coin.

while i know a TV isn't a person, i'm wondering how that same round would have reacted if it had been organic tissue coverd in heavy fabric.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Lets talk about wadcutters...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftloose View Post
From the same article, Bruce...
"Are wadcutter bullets good for defense? If the most robust hollowpoints are "too much" in recoil, a wadcutter is certainly better than a lead roundnose."
Okay, so that guy (the author's) opinion includes a counterpoint to yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftloose View Post
The reality is that article is mostly talking about 2" snubnose revolvers and the lack of enough velocity due to the short barrel to allow modern JHP bullets to expand properly thus making them no better than round-nose hardball. Also, that JHP's with enough pressure to create the needed velocity might be uncomfortable to shoot from a lighweight snubbie. In such an instance, wadcutters may be a reasonable alternative. In my opinion, with the numbers cited in the article, the penetration of the wadcutters was exessive, to say the least. And that is contrary to what I thought would be the case.
As far as JHPs go - my original post expressed that, in my opinion, you will 'do more damage' regarding a "self defense" situation (doing more 'shock', creating a larger wound cavity) with a JHP (and I meant one that expands properly, anyway) over a wadcutter any day.

For Self Defense use - absolutely, I would recomend a JHP (of a design, or traveling at such a velocity, that you can reliably get it to expand) over a wadcutter or semiwadcutter.

As the article suggests (and other have suggested) - people tend to 'dismiss' wadcutters (and semiwadcutters) because (for the most part) they are almost exclusively considered as being used in "target" ammunition these days.

The Keith-style Bullet (developed by Elmer Keith) are the only bullets I consider to be "SemiWadcutters". Lots of people have taken lots of deer (including Mr. Keith himself) with the .357 Magnum Keith-style SemiWadCutter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Keith

:: On a side note: For my, personal use 'target' handloads, I load 148gr. Copper Plated Double Sided Wadcutters out to be 'roughly' the same pressure as the 145gr. Winchester SilverTips (also my own handloads) that I carry for self defense. These are certainly not "mild" 'plinking'/target loads (as you would find 'factory' .38 Special Wadcutters to be) by any stretch of the imagination! At the well above supersonic speeds that I get them to, I'd be very confident they would pop ('crush') a nice round hole straight through a sternum, or ribs, or a skull.

But - you will notice (as I mentioned) that I don't carry wadcutters for Self Defense; I carry hollow points (Winchester SilverTips) for Self Defense.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Lets talk about wadcutters...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
just as an observation, i've seen how JHPs in .38 act when passing through glass/hard objects. i shot a TV once, using a factory load Hornady, i forget the weight. the range was about 20 feet or so. the jacket fully separated from the lead core, and had fragmented a bit. the core itself had flattened out to a disc about 3/4" across; i almost didn't realize it was the core, because it had flattened out so much. it looked almost like a coin.

while i know a TV isn't a person, i'm wondering how that same round would have reacted if it had been organic tissue coverd in heavy fabric.
http://hipowers-handguns.blogspot.co...l-defense.html

http://brasstard.com/?p=140

Then you have the 'FBI' data:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/38special.htm

...and there's a TON of junk (and it pretty much is mostly 'junk') on youtube - just search for ".38 Special" and "watermelon" or "water bottle" or "groundhog" (no, seriously - "groundhog") or 'whatever'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJcbKVesjc4
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 06:34 PM
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Default Re: Lets talk about wadcutters...

Same-same for SemiWadCutters - which, I would imagine, would fly "straighter" for longer distances. If you were going for speed, distance, stability and penetration (in lieu of a Spire Point Bullet), I'd say that a SemiWadCutter is the way to go for a handgun

A semi-wad has a much better ballistic coefficient than a wadcutter and certainly will do the job (read Elmer Keith). But accuracy with a wadcutter out to 50 yards and more is excellent (watch any PPC shooter). The two problems with wadcutters are factory velocities are low velocity and any of them are not easy to use with speedloaders. I carry factory wadcutters in the gun and RP 158 SWC (std velocity) in speedloader, speedstrip, or 2x2 pouch for a mucheasier reload.

Neither is a great penetrator on hard objects and will just dent the side of a mailbox out of a 2" but so will a 125 gr +P load.

Hollow points are good if they expand and we all know the circumstances they won't. Low velocities out out short barrel guns are one of them. If it's a hollowoint you want in a 2" I'd go with the FBI load but I'm still feel okay anout carrying wadcutters evn if the factory rounds are anemic.
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