Powder burn rates

[unclesam099]

I do understand the need for different powder burn rates. However, I don't necessarily understand it fully.

Can someone offer me some suggestions regarding why I should load some of my 45acp loads with Titegroup vs. some with Win231? What differences should I see in a load with the same velocity (if any)?

I'm just curious as to why I should favor one powder over the other, etc. I've done some Google-fu on this topic, but haven't found too much. Plus this is a good area to for those who are knowledgeable to add some info. Thanks

[ah141nj]

Good question you asked.
Wish I was capable of answering it.
Very interested in the responses to this as well.

[Flash3x]

No easy anwser to that one.

Chamber pressure is my main driving force for picking one powder over another. My preferance is to find a powder that will produce the lowest pressure while producing the desired velocity that I am looking for. Of course this method might not always produce the most accurate load but since 90% of my shooting is plinking I do not really care about super accurate loads. This all assumes that I can find accurate chamber pressure information for the specific load I am reloading, if not, I stick to the reloading manual.

When in doubt, do what a modern reloading manual says, they are typically on the conservitive side so that you do not get yourself in trouble.

Most folks choose one powder over another either because of years of experience and testing of different powders in a given cartridge or because someone with years of experience recommended a powder to someone with no experience. Weather that advice came from grandpap, uncle Roy, the fella down the road or someone here on PAFOA. That or they just like the name like "Bullseye!" or "TAC", (both of which I use often), or my all time favorite "Hercules" of which I have used pounds and pounds back in the day.

Its mostly all opinion, just like my opinion above.

P.S. Do you have a specific load in mind?

[unclesam099]

Something using either Titegroup or Win231 since I have some of those two

I have used about half of my Titegroup and got the 231 recently so that I could load some with that for experimenting, that's all. I know that people have their own favorite "recipe" and that's what I seem to find is opinions, not necessarily science of why they like this powder or that one. (My uncle is a Solo 1000 user, btw)

I was shooing 4.8gr of Titegroup with a 200gr cast lead Flat Point in my XD45. I might want to shoot something with less velocity for a good target/plinking/training load. Something with a little less recoil. I think the minimum load for the 231 will give me a good starting point.

[Xringshooter]

Just like with factory rounds, guns seem to "like" (shoot more accurately) rounds loaded with certain powders. Also, when loading for specific uses (light plinking, medium target, heavy hunting loads) you may want to try different powders find the best load for the gun. A big load of 231 may not make sense (pressure wise)for a high power load, but it may work great for a low/medium target load.

Example, when I was shooting PPC the pretty much standard load was 38 special brass, 148 gr LHBWC, Federal small pistol primer, and 2.8 grs of Red Dot. Then someone suggested using Solo 1000. Started loading the same rounds but with 2.5 grs of Solo. It burned cleaner (less smoke) and was more accurate in my PPC gun.

If you want to see the difference, load some rounds to the same velocity (according to the manual) with different powders and shoot them a note how clean the burn is, how the recoil felt, how the gun operated, etc.

[andrewjs18]

Originally Posted by Xringshooter

Just like with factory rounds, guns seem to "like" (shoot more accurately) rounds loaded with certain powders. Also, when loading for specific uses (light plinking, medium target, heavy hunting loads) you may want to try different powders find the best load for the gun. A big load of 231 may not make sense (pressure wise)for a high power load, but it may work great for a low/medium target load.

Example, when I was shooting PPC the pretty much standard load was 38 special brass, 148 gr LHBWC, Federal small pistol primer, and 2.8 grs of Red Dot. Then someone suggested using Solo 1000. Started loading the same rounds but with 2.5 grs of Solo. It burned cleaner (less smoke) and was more accurate in my PPC gun.

If you want to see the difference, load some rounds to the same velocity (according to the manual) with different powders and shoot them a note how clean the burn is, how the recoil felt, how the gun operated, etc.

I agree...for example...we've loaded up about 300-400 rds of 9mm ammo with blue dot powder. My CZ does ok with it, but doesn't keep tight groups. Now, my g/fs Dad's Glock and Browning love Blue Dot...

We're going to try to work up a load using Unique and see how it works.

[bloomautomatic]

Here's a chart I just found with all of the burn rates relative to one another. http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

This shows rifle and pistol powders. Around #70/71 is about the slowest I'd load for pistol, and that's for .44 mag. the general rule of thumb I always heard was that faster powders would be more accurate, but with less power. That's not to say you can't make an accurate round with a slow burning powder as well. My light target .44 mag load with bullseye chrono'd around 1000fps, while my heavy target load with WC-820 (a military surplus powder) was around 1350fps. Both grouped as tight as the other.

I don't think there's a big difference in changing from one powder to another one that's within one or two numbers. Bullseye and Solo 1000 for example. I think the accuracy comes from getting the right amount of powder for your particular gun, and that can only come from making a few different loads and benching them.

Another thing to consider - and this is why I didn't like Unique - is how the powder meters through your thrower. WC-820 meters very consistently through my equipment, while Unique wouldn't.

For your specific question about Titegroup (#12 on the list) and 231 (#26 on the list). Since 231 is slower than titegroup, it should be able to produce more power. If you have access to both, try working up loads with each and see which shoots and cycles better in your gun.

If both are loaded to the same velocity, you'll probably fill the case less with 231. Generally, the fuller the case, the more consistent the ignition, and therefore a more consistent and accurate round. Generally, that is.

There are so many variables from gun to gun that the only to find out is by trying them both.

Vince

[Tomcat088]

I'm not just gonna speak in terms of pistols here, because I don't really currently reload for pistols, but I do reload for rifle cartridges. So you will have to kind of take this how you will and think of it in broader terms.

Different powders have different burn rates, which you already know. Different burn rates affect many different things. As the powders burn they build up pressure, depending on the burn rate and shape of the powder, they can have different pressure curves. These pressure curves will favor different weights of bullets, sometimes shapes of bullets, different barrel lengths, and different types of actions. In rifle shooting, you can't always push semi auto rifles with the same kinds of pressures that you could maybe a bolt action rifle.

You should also keep in mind that different types of powders have different temperature sensitivity. Some powders will be VERY consistent with a fixed temperature and shoot very small groups; BUT sometimes if you take that powder into something like hunting conditions or a very cold range you still start to see different results. Some powders that might not shoot the best groups in one condition, might still shoot that consistent "decent" group in all conditions; while the powder that might have shot itty bitty bugholes in one condition will open way up in others.

Some reloaders favor a certain type of powder because of how it flows. The different shapes and sizes of grains of powder will affect how it flows in the powder measure. This will affect the accuracy of the initial charge that is thrown, and can affect how much you have to trickle the load to get your "pet" load. Some reloaders also like to use a certain powder because of how MUCH they have to use, sometimes it's so much that it makes it impossible for you to double charge a round. If you double charge a round, then the powder will start to run over the edges, so you know that you double charged one; just a safeguard in a way. There are also other shooters that their rifles likes a compressed load. This is not something that you should start with a big load, because it can drastically increase pressure WAY over what the uncompressed load was. Some people favor compressed loads because it doesn't allow the powder to shift in the case, which over time and alot of movement can actually change the burn properties of the powder. Some reloaders also think that the compressed load allows for a better and more consistent burn column.

My experience with rifles has been different some that listed of some people here with pistols. The fastest burning powder is not usually the most accurate, just like the fastest load is not the most accurate. The most accurate load is the one that will be the most consistent, and have the least standard deviation in velocity. Drop can always be accounted for, especially in rifles, so what you really need is the bullet to consistently hit the same point of impact. Sometimes the larger bullet will do better with a slower burning powder because they build up more pressure and you can get more velocity and consistency. Sometimes if you use that same powder on the slower burning powders, they'll have already exited the barrel before there's enough pressure built up to push it very fast. Different barrel lengths, and whether the barrel is "fast" or "slow" will have an impact on this effect as well. There's alot more factors that impact different aspects of reloading, but this just kind of some ideas behind the powder aspect.

[Bama Man]

Like Flash3x, my main concern is chamber pressure vs velocity.
I look for the best velocity with the lowest chamber pressure.
There is very little difference between Titegroup and Win 231.
With a 185 grain jacketed bullet in 45 acp, titegroup shows 877 fps with 5.0grains, and Win 231 shows 670 fps with 5.1 grains. (Start loads per Modern Reloading, 2nd edition).
At "never exceed" levels, Titegroup shows 17000 cup, Win 231 shows 18,600psi.
To me, this says that Win 231 shoots slower, at more recoil (pressure) than Titegroup.
The .45 acp has 1.14 cc useful case capacity (before compressing the load), and Titegroup uses .42cc, Win 231 uses .47cc, so, Win 231 is a slightly bulkier powder also.
One thing to consider also, is that bulkier powders fill the case better, so with some powders it is impossible to double charge a cartridge, as the powder will overflow. Example, a load of Herco in a .45acp case with the 200 grain bullet fills .83cc of the case, so, a double charge is 1.66cc of powder in a 1.14cc useful case. It would overflow, or compress, but, easily a very visible difference to the careful reloader.
I hope this helps somewhat, somewhere, to answer some of your question.

[unclesam099]

This all kinda helps I guess.

So here's what I see right now for my target load (manufacturer starting load):

Titegroup 4.8gr, 877fps, 13,400cup
Win 231 4.4gr, 771fps, 11,000cup

And for the max recommended loads:

Titegroup 5.4gr, 957fps, 16,800cup
Win 231 5.6gr, 914fps, 16,900cup

(Tested in a 5" barrel I bet)

I didn't really realize that Titegroup was that fast for the starting loads! But will the starting load have more recoil because it's a lower pressure? I wouldn't really expect that from a lower pressure/velocity load