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  #61 (permalink)  
Old September 1st, 2012, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: 5.56 vs. 7.62x39

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Originally Posted by Valorius View Post
I agree with every word in your post.

I would advise everyone asking themselves this question to also ask, "Does a 5.7mm do everything i need done even better?"

In my estimation, it does.
Ok 5.7 is neat and impressive but lets talk platform and simplicity. Are we talking 5.7 out of FN Pistol, P90? And are these platforms reliable and proven?

What is the cost of a P90 and 1000 rounds of 5.7?

An AK is $500 and a 1000 rounds is $250, add a couple of taped mags and a drum or two and you can stop a Kenworth. Will 5.7 stop a Kennie?
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old September 1st, 2012, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: 5.56 vs. 7.62x39

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Originally Posted by Valorius View Post
I agree with every word in your post.

I would advise everyone asking themselves this question to also ask, "Does a 5.7mm do everything i need done even better?"

In my estimation, it does.
Really, a 5.7 can't compare to a 5.56 especially past 200yds which is the effective range of a 5.7.

Now to the original question, I prefer the 5.56 over just about every round and the reason why has been posted many times in the thread.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: 5.56 vs. 7.62x39

I think Valorious has a valid point regarding the 5.7 round in terms of ballistics but also from a SHTF scenario as well. One caliber and multiple platforms - it doesn't get more simpler than that. A primary weapon could be a AR57 and the secondary would be a Five-seven pistol. Keep a 5.56 upper with spare mags somewhere in the bugout bag in case you so happen to stumble upon someone's stash of ammo.

In the SHTF scenario I posted earlier, the engagements would be within 50 yards or less. In this specific scenario, a 5.7 should be sufficient.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: 5.56 vs. 7.62x39

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Originally Posted by arjohnson View Post
Really, a 5.7 can't compare to a 5.56 especially past 200yds which is the effective range of a 5.7.

Now to the original question, I prefer the 5.56 over just about every round and the reason why has been posted many times in the thread.
True, a 5.7 cannot compare to a 5.56 beyond 200 yards. However, is it realistic to engage threats that are 200 yards away? Even 100 yards would be questionable in an urban setting. Ideally, if there was a true SHTF scenario, I wouldn't want ANYONE to know I was at home. IF people decide to come into my house, I'll dispatch them as quietly as possible. If that is not an option (e.g., a mob is coming), then you're still engaging within 50 yard distances and a 5.56, 7.62, or a 5.7 should be sufficient to neutralize the threat.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: 5.56 vs. 7.62x39

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Originally Posted by arjohnson View Post
Really, a 5.7 can't compare to a 5.56 especially past 200yds which is the effective range of a 5.7.

Now to the original question, I prefer the 5.56 over just about every round and the reason why has been posted many times in the thread.
Obviously any comparison between 5.7mm and 5.56mm would be restricted to 200m or less, and IMO, really we as civvies don't even need to concern ourselves with anything beyond 25m anyway. Outside 200m, i agree that 5.56mm has a big advantage.

But.....a 5.7mm completely blows away a 5.56mm's ability to compete in 2 key categories. Recoil and ammo mass/size.

If your sidearm is also a FN Five Seven, it also blows away 5.56mm in ammo compatibility/standardization.

A single .30 cal ammo can filled with 5.7mm holds 1200rds.

For the same approx weight you can carry 101rds of M14 ammo in 5x20rd mags, 211rds of M16 ammo in 7x30rd mags, or 361rds of 5.7x28mm ammo in 12x30rd FsN magazines.

5.7mm recoil is about 30% less than 5.56mm in a carbine, and also about 30% less than 9mm from a pistol.

Clearly, in these categories, the 5.7mm blows 5.56mm away.

I would put the top 5.7mm rounds (which IMO is the Elite S4M) about on par with the lethality of 5.56mm M193, and the FN 28gr OTM loadings about on par with 5.45mm ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7998 View Post
Ok 5.7 is neat and impressive but lets talk platform and simplicity. Are we talking 5.7 out of FN Pistol, P90? And are these platforms reliable and proven?

What is the cost of a P90 and 1000 rounds of 5.7?

An AK is $500 and a 1000 rounds is $250, add a couple of taped mags and a drum or two and you can stop a Kenworth. Will 5.7 stop a Kennie?
Because it is a low volume item, 5.7mm is not cost competitive with 5.56mm at this time.

That would be a huge advantage for 5.56mm, if cost is a key factor in your decision.

The FsN and FNP90 are both very robust and simple designs, both were designed specifically for combat use, and both have been used extensively by elite units since their introduction. The P90 is used by the USSS to protect the White House, and the FsN is used by the Queen of England's elite body guards. While both platforms are very expensive, they are both combat tested and proven.

The 5.7mm carbine that i want to get and that really intrigues me is the MPA 5700sst. It is based on a Mac-10, but uses the FN Five Seven's pistol magazines. Despite having a 16" bbl it is also very compact and comes with a quad rail and side cocker design. Folding stocks are available for it. If you armed yourself with that and a Five Seven pistol you'd have one kind of ammo with one universal magazine type that fits both your weapons. An absolutely ideal situation.

Last edited by Valorius; September 1st, 2012 at 08:46 PM.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old September 1st, 2012, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: 5.56 vs. 7.62x39

Quote:
Originally Posted by RXM View Post
True, a 5.7 cannot compare to a 5.56 beyond 200 yards. However, is it realistic to engage threats that are 200 yards away? Even 100 yards would be questionable in an urban setting. Ideally, if there was a true SHTF scenario, I wouldn't want ANYONE to know I was at home. IF people decide to come into my house, I'll dispatch them as quietly as possible. If that is not an option (e.g., a mob is coming), then you're still engaging within 50 yard distances and a 5.56, 7.62, or a 5.7 should be sufficient to neutralize the threat.
Sufficient, maybe at close range. This is a SHTF type question and unless you have a shit load of 5.7 ammo and enough mags then the 5.7 is an absolute poor choice in regards to the original question.

So what happens when you run out of ammo? Do you think it will be as easy to come by compared to 5.56 or 7.62x39? No it won't be. I'd take a 9mm over a 5.7 if I didn't have a rifle just for the simple fact that ammo will be available somewhere. Good luck with the 5.7, once your out of ammo your pretty much out of luck.

Not to mention having I'd rather have the ability to engage targets effectively at long ranges than be limited to 200yds.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old September 1st, 2012, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: 5.56 vs. 7.62x39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valorius View Post
Obviously any comparison between 5.7mm and 5.56mm would be restricted to 200m or less, and IMO, really we as civvies don't even need to concern ourselves with anything beyond 25m anyway. Outside 200m, i agree that 5.56mm has a big advantage.

But.....a 5.7mm completely blows away a 5.56mm's ability to compete in 2 key categories. Recoil and ammo mass/size.

If your sidearm is also a FN Five Seven, it also blows away 5.56mm in ammo compatibility/standardization.

A single .30 cal ammo can filled with 5.7mm holds 1200rds.

For the same approx weight you can carry 101rds of M14 ammo in 5x20rd mags, 211rds of M16 ammo in 7x30rd mags, or 361rds of 5.7x28mm ammo in 12x30rd FsN magazines.

5.7mm recoil is about 30% less than 5.56mm in a carbine, and also about 30% less than 9mm from a pistol.

Clearly, in these categories, the 5.7mm blows 5.56mm away.

I would put the top 5.7mm rounds (which IMO is the Elite S4M) about on par with the lethality of 5.56mm M193, and the FN 28gr OTM loadings about on par with 5.45mm ball.


Because it is a low volume item, 5.7mm is not cost competitive with 5.56mm at this time.

That would be a huge advantage for 5.56mm, if cost is a key factor in your decision.

The FsN and FNP90 are both very robust and simple designs, both were designed specifically for combat use, and both have been used extensively by elite units since their introduction. The P90 is used by the USSS to protect the White House, and the FsN is used by the Queen of England's elite body guards. While both platforms are very expensive, they are both combat tested and proven.

The 5.7mm carbine that i want to get and that really intrigues me is the MPA 5700sst. It is based on a Mac-10, but uses the FN Five Seven's pistol magazines. Despite having a 16" bbl it is also very compact and comes with a quad rail and side cocker design. Folding stocks are available for it. If you armed yourself with that and a Five Seven pistol you'd have one kind of ammo with one universal magazine type that fits both your weapons. An absolutely ideal situation.
And you would be about the only one with that setup. When your ammo is gone your done. I'll stick with the proven and popular 5.56.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: 5.56 vs. 7.62x39

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Originally Posted by arjohnson View Post
And you would be about the only one with that setup. When your ammo is gone your done. I'll stick with the proven and popular 5.56.
I'll have about 2-3x the ammo of the 5.56mm user to start out with.

When i run out of 5.7mm- if i ever run out- i'll just pick up an AR-15 or AK-47 off a dead person.

Consider this SHTF scenario:

SHTF and on your way out the door you have time to grab your tac vest, your carbine/sidearm, and 2 US .30 cal cans of ammo.

With 7.62mm, and using the M14s standard loadout of 5x20rd magazines, you'd have about 500rds in ammo cans, and 101rds in your rifle and mags. Your pistol ammo and mags would be obviously incompatible. So you have 601rds, and that's it.

With 5.56mm and using the M16's standard loadout of 7x30rd magazines, you'd have about 800rds in ammo cans and 211rds in mags and in the weapon. Your pistol mags would be obviously incompatible. So you have about 1011rds on your person.

With 5.7mm and using the loadout i listed above, you'd have 2400rds in ammo cans, and 361rds on your person. YOUR MAGS ARE UNIVERSAL and fit both your pistol and carbine. You'd have a total of 2761rds on your person and you could use it in either your carbine or your sidearm.

2761rds is about 250% more than the 5.56mm user, and about 425% more than the 7.62mm user.

So in many ways, the 5.7mm holds huge advantages over 5.56mm. And it should....it is the state of the art.

Last edited by Valorius; September 1st, 2012 at 08:49 PM.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old September 1st, 2012, 08:44 PM
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Wink Re: 5.56 vs. 7.62x39

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Originally Posted by arjohnson View Post
Sufficient, maybe at close range. This is a SHTF type question and unless you have a shit load of 5.7 ammo and enough mags then the 5.7 is an absolute poor choice in regards to the original question.

So what happens when you run out of ammo? Do you think it will be as easy to come by compared to 5.56 or 7.62x39? No it won't be. I'd take a 9mm over a 5.7 if I didn't have a rifle just for the simple fact that ammo will be available somewhere. Good luck with the 5.7, once your out of ammo your pretty much out of luck.

Not to mention having I'd rather have the ability to engage targets effectively at long ranges than be limited to 200yds.
I thought of that possible scenario and that's why I suggested the AR57 upper with a spare 5.56 upper with mags in a bugout bag.

Quote:
Keep a 5.56 upper with spare mags somewhere in the bugout bag in case you so happen to stumble upon someone's stash of ammo.
Also, you mention that you want to be able to engage targets out to 200 yards and beyond. After order is restored, would you be able to defend your actions to a jury that a guy standing 200 yards away was a imminent threat to you?

Last edited by RXM; September 1st, 2012 at 08:50 PM.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 08:49 PM
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Default Re: 5.56 vs. 7.62x39

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Originally Posted by RXM View Post
I thought of that possible scenario and that's why I suggested the AR57 upper with a spare 5.56 upper with mags in a bugout bag.
The way I see that is instead of hauling around a spare upper that space could be better used for ammo.

I'd go with most popular such as an AR in 5.56 over anything else, followed by an AK in 7.62x39 and then by a G17, but that's just me.
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