.45 vs. .357

[DPB]

Originally Posted by The Drew

That being said, if you expect to run into guys wearing body armor, then the alternative should be a headshot.

Two other alternatives would be 1) A rifle, and 2) Going somewhere else.

FRISteve, you're disputing things I haven't said. I never said that 1500 PSI was a huge difference, in fact, I never said "1500 PSI" at all. I did intend to suggest that 5000 PSI, which is the difference between 9x19 and .357 SIG is a significant difference.

Apparently, I was not able to effectively express what I was trying to say, I'll try again:

If you take two otherwise equal platforms (like a G17 and a G31), and one is chambered for 9x19 and one is chambered in .357 SIG (like a G17 and a G31), the one firing the higher pressure cartridge will break more parts and have a shorter service life.

So, a G17 will require less parts replacement and have a longer life cycle than a G31. A G17 that fires only 9mm+P ammo will have a shorter life cycle and break fewer parts than a G17 that fires only standard pressure ammo.

So, otherwise equal gun + higher operating pressure = shorter service life. No one has said anything yet that refutes this. If you have any facts that dispute this, I'm more than willing to read them.

The 9mm+P vs. .45 ACP+P statistics are dramatic, but they don't tell the entire story either. This is mostly a non-issue because there aren't many firearms that come in both 9mm and .45 and meet the "otherwise equal" qualification.

I also suspect that the dramatically lower operating pressure of the .45 ACP (as compared to the 9mm) is partially due to the higher case volume in relation to the volume of the powder charge. The 9mm charge takes up almost all of the space avialable, while the .45 charge does not. While some of the reloading information I've used for other cartridges supports this, I cannot cite a source where this is scientifically established.

[FRISteve]

Originally Posted by DPB

FRISteve, you're disputing things I haven't said. I never said that 1500 PSI was a huge difference, in fact, I never said "1500 PSI" at all. I did intend to suggest that 5000 PSI, which is the difference between 9x19 and .357 SIG is a significant difference.

No - I wasn't specifically talking to/at you - just speaking in generalities. Now, I do think that you're fudging the numbers by comparing 9x19 'target loads' with full power 357Sig. Compare apples to apples and you get 40k vs. 38.5k. Same-same, in the grand scheme of things.

Apparently, I was not able to effectively express what I was trying to say, I'll try again:

If you take two otherwise equal platforms (like a G17 and a G31), and one is chambered for 9x19 and one is chambered in .357 SIG (like a G17 and a G31), the one firing the higher pressure cartridge will break more parts and have a shorter service life.

No different than if you shoot nothing but full house +Ps out of the G17.

One other thing to remember - SAAMI specs are MAXIMUMS. That does NOT mean that all 357Sig rounds are **at** 40kPSI - it means that they can not exceed 40k and be SAAMI spec in that caliber.

So, a G17 will require less parts replacement and have a longer life cycle than a G31. A G17 that fires only 9mm+P ammo will have a shorter life cycle and break fewer parts than a G17 that fires only standard pressure ammo.

I agree

So, otherwise equal gun + higher operating pressure = shorter service life. No one has said anything yet that refutes this. If you have any facts that dispute this, I'm more than willing to read them.

But to what degree is the life shortened? In 1990, everyone was making the same argument in relation to the .40S&W - guns will wear out faster...blah...blah...blah. I have a G23 with 82,000 rounds through it...okay - maybe I'll only get 500k through it, as opposed to the 1million+ that some G17s have digested, but that'll be okay by me.

[G21.45]

Well, I hope we’re not playing with semantics, here, just for the sake of seeing who can come out on top? My comments have been sincere; and, yes, I do carry what I consider to be an ideal, ‘allowed weapon’ for as wide a variety of circumstances as possible.

The point about Laurel Canyon is that many police officers who carried only pistols suddenly found themselves to be under-gunned. I, also, subscribe to the concept that, ‘A gun without bullets is no better than a rock or a club!’ Heck, in comparison to several prominent local businessmen who have lived in this area all of their lives, I’m actually walking around, everyday, comparatively under-armed! Since moving to Pennsylvania I’ve, also, been surprised to learn of the number of women who are carrying handguns. Sometimes, while walking around my local Wal-Mart, I'll wonder to myself how many of the women who pass by are, also, carrying pistols in their purses?

‘Homestead’ is one of the common names given to the 1986 FBI, ‘Miami Shootout’. I believe that they call this area, ‘Pinecrest’ today. It’s one of those case studies, available to the general public, which I’ve spent many hours reading my way through - What went right, and what went wrong.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/brie...shootout,_1986

With Jeff Cooper’s comment on Laurel Canyon in mind, (‘Whatever happened to head shots?’) I do believe a strong case can be made for carrying more rather than fewer bullets; and, bigger (perhaps, slower moving) bullets are better than smaller (faster) bullets – Particularly in handguns! This, of course, means I’m an advocate for the 45 acp in handguns; and I’d, also, be in favor of a combat rifle/carbine cartridge like the 6.5x39mm Grendel. (Never happen, right!)

Don’t know how you drew this conclusion; but, I don’t carry an unwieldy, 'battle pack' with me everywhere I go. I carry one Glock G-21 with an inserted 13 round magazine, and one 17 round backup magazine on a well-made Wm. Tucker gun belt. In the Winter my Beretta, ‘Alley Cat’ is in an outside pocket. In the Summer, this little 32 acp pistol is either cross-draw, or else it’s in one of my pockets – This, really, isn’t a big deal.

I don’t quite follow the comments about a, ‘4 point racing harness’ and a, ‘roll cage’? I will say that I’m comfortable with what I carry. For instance, I actually feel, ‘funny’ if the weight of that 45 pistol isn’t on my hip! On occasion I’ve carried for more than 16 hours and, not once, regretted the weight, or desired to remove the pistol for greater comfort. To my mind, the reassurance of my, ‘belt load’ is comfort – itself!

Are you asking me whether or not I always carry? Well, like most older Americans I'm, somewhat, dismayed by the ongoing decline in Christian values and social ethics. (I mean, everywhere you go, nowadays, you have to be constantly looking over your shoulder: parking lots, malls, late night trips to the supermarket - whatever. Even the TV set now has published daily, 'threat warnings' blinking at you!) This is a crazy situation that's very different from the moral and orderly hometown America of my youth. So, yes, I have to say that normally I am armed. (So are many of my neighbors!) As I said, ‘Carrying has become a lifestyle for me.’

Can’t really address the comments on which handgun or caliber is better for someone else to use. I use what works well for me; and, I fire 2 or 3 hundred rounds every week to make sure that I’m proficient. While I don’t have particularly big hands I’m, still, able to shoot Glock and 1911 handguns equally well. (At point shooting I’m, probably, a little better with the slimmer grip of a 1911, though.)

Based on authoritative NRA technical reports I’ve read, I’ll have to disagree with the all-encompassing statement, ‘Velocity absolutely defeats soft body armor’. That’s a truism best applied to long barreled weapons. (Something a typical American gunman probably wouldn’t have access to if suddenly caught up in a gunfight.) Don’t really want to get into it, here; but, with handguns, ‘point configuration’ has a great deal to do with the successful penetration of soft armor.

NOTES:

(1) I don’t see the FN 5.7x28mm pistol as a viable threat to soft body armor. American civilians can no longer purchase FN’s, armor piercing, core penetrator ammo; so, as far as I’m concerned, as it is now powered the, ‘Five-Seven’ is just a glorified 22 magnum!

(2) I don’t quite follow the logic to this? If you’ve got the 45 acp at 21,000 psi and the 357 SIG at 40,000 psi, then, the difference in chamber pressure would be 19,000 psi – yes? That’s approximately half again as much! Maybe my calculator is broken; but, how can a significant pressure increase like this be equated to, ‘Nada’?

Isn’t this conclusion rather dismissive? (Even WalterGA used to admit that the 40 S&W could be a problem; and, IIRC, he didn’t reload 40’s for his Glocks.)

[Rick]

I'll have to go out on a limb and state the obvious. You can pick up a box of .45 ACP pretty much anywhere that sells ammo. You'd probably have to hunt a bit to find .357 SIG.
Not to say that one is better than the other, it's the same issue I had when I got my first 7mm-08. If I'd gone the .308 or '06 route, I could have bought ammo at the gas station down the road, but since I had to be all trendy I ended up having to go to Grice Gun Shop in Clearfield to get it. ( I lived in Clearfield County at the time.) Sure it's more accurate, flatter shooting, better ballistic coefficiency, and can be used on comporable game, but, I got to be the guy with the "new" gun. That issue has worked itself out as the 7mm-08 became more popular, but I don't see the same trend for the .357 SIG. It's sorta like the 10mm was when it was introduced. All my buddies wanted to jump on that ship, it's so much more powerful than the 9mm. Then the .40 S&W came out, and pretty much destroyed the 10mm. A little slower, a bit less recoil, basically the same bullet. It caught on and the 10mm has fallen into obscurity.
But back to the question at hand, the .357 SIG is going to travel faster, pentrate more, and probably cause more collateral damage than the trusty old .45 ACP. So then you have to ask why not go with a revolver that is chambered for .357 mag? You could shoot .38spl out of it for a fraction of the cost to practice, and 6 rounds should be able to put the average nutjob in a 6x3x6 unless a whole lot of shootin' is required. I did read where a cop used his backup .357 SIG to kill the guy inside a vehicle because his .45 ACP hadn't done the job, if that's the kind of shooting you're talking about then go with it by all means.

[DPB]

I had a reply typed out last night and thought I submitted it, I guess the computer defeated me.

FRISteve, I don't see that we are disagreeing on anything substantial. Although, I don't see using the standard 9mm figure as an issue, since the vast majority of 9mm ammo shot in the US is not +P. And I agree that the .357 SIG isn't necessarily loaded to the max figure, but then neither is the 9mm. In my opinion, comparing apples to apples means comparing the standard loads against each other, not comparing one standard load to the other's above standard load.

I'm sure that chamber pressure is an indicator of increased wear, but I suspect that power factor or muzzle energy is really the number we should be discussing. 82000+ rounds is the most I've heard of out of a Glock .40, and I would be very interested in knowing what parts you have had to replace (if any), and if that ammo was primarily factory or full power reloads, or if much of it was downloaded reloads. I don't mean to suggest anything negative by asking about downloaded ammo, most of the .45 I shoot is a 200 grain bullet at around 840 fps, for a number of practical and economic reasons.

G21.45, I did not intend to suggest that you were insincere or that your opinions were not valid. I believe a G21 sized gun, extra ammo, and a back up gun would take a substantial effort to conceal, and I appreciate you explaining how you carry it. I misunderstood one of your earlier posts and took it to mean that you carried multiple extra mags. I did understand that you always carried, and you are right, there is a certain commitment involved in that.

I totally agree that the 5.7 pistol, and even the P90 PDW, are of almost no utility, and I think this is true even if the SS190 (armor piercing) ammo was available. It is an interesting academic development, but I don't think anyone who is serious about protecting themselves should be relying on it.

Regarding velocity not being a factor in handguns, check the NIJ standards for ballistic vests. Level IIA, II, and IIIA vests all stop 9mms, but at respective velocities of 1090, 1175, and 1400 fps, respectively. All levels specify a 9mm, 124 grain, full metal jacket round nose bullet. So, clearly, it takes more Kevlar to stop the same bullet if it is travelling faster. Now, the 1400 fps number is generally only possible out of submachine guns, but the 1090 and 1175 are both within the reach of a service sized handgun.

I think I can explain why the .45 ACP has such a lower chamber pressure, but that, and military rifle cartridges, and the rapid delcline of the 10mm, are subjects for another day.

[FRISteve]

Originally Posted by DPB

FRISteve, I don't see that we are disagreeing on anything substantial.

I agree completely

In my opinion, comparing apples to apples means comparing the standard loads against each other, not comparing one standard load to the other's above standard load.

Self defense loads, as opposed to target loads, in 357Sig will be the ones that approach 40k. If I was carrying a 9x19 for self defense, I'd have +Ps in them - as would the vast majority of people I know. So, 38.5k. At least that is *my* logic.

82000+ rounds is the most I've heard of out of a Glock .40, and I would be very interested in knowing what parts you have had to replace (if any), and if that ammo was primarily factory or full power reloads, or if much of it was downloaded reloads.

An instructor of mine has about 100k through one of his G23s. I have replaced 1 locking block (it had a hunk out of it, but the gun functioned fine), and change the recoil spring and guide about every 15k rounds or so. It was the pre-upgrade, so the upgrade parts were put in it in about 1994.

As for ammo - probably 10k reloads, 25k Blazer, about 2k 'carry' ammo and the rest various flavors of FMJ (Win White Box, Speer Lawman, etc).

The instructor's gun is almost 100% reloads.

[steve028]

Hi Guys I currently own a CZ 75 P-01, and I'm looking to trade it in on either a .40 cal or a .357 sig, my question is 2 part , 1 which type of ammo is easier to control out of the two , and 2, in .40 im looking at the Glock 23 and the smith M&p compact in .40 and in 357 sig im looking at the Glock 32 and the smith M&P compact in 357 which they said will be out in a couple weeks. any opinions on any of the guns i listed and about the recoil of each ammo i listed will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Steve

[The Drew]

Originally Posted by steve028

Hi Guys I currently own a CZ 75 P-01, and I'm looking to trade it in on either a .40 cal or a .357 sig, my question is 2 part , 1 which type of ammo is easier to control out of the two , and 2, in .40 im looking at the Glock 23 and the smith M&p compact in .40 and in 357 sig im looking at the Glock 32 and the smith M&P compact in 357 which they said will be out in a couple weeks. any opinions on any of the guns i listed and about the recoil of each ammo i listed will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Steve

If you want something that is easier to control, go with the smith in .40 They specifically designed that gun to have reduced felt recoil. I have found the glock 23 to be VERY snappy. This was compared to an XD40 and the M&P is an improvement over the XD in felt recoil.

[steve028]

Good to know , thanks for the info , thats the route im going to go i think.

[Coyote]

I am an owner of both the .45 and the .357 sig. Alot of people cant handle the .357 sig because of the recoil so they talk bad about it. Every one who shoots knows its never going to be cheap in this day and age to do so. I go through about 1000 round for each of my pistols. My two primary pistols that i shoot the most are the H & K USP 45 and the Glock 31 .357 Sig. I love the 357 its a great fire arm. Its lighter than the .45 can even dream of being. It does kick a lot for the inexperienced shooter but thankfully enough for you guys glock makes many differernt aftermarket parts to add on to it to reduce the recoil. The pure thought of being able to shoot through anything is quite satisfying. The ability to shoot through the wind shield and kill the occupant if neccessary is also a relief. Dont get my wrong i also love my .45 and wouldnt trade it for anything either. The thought of one bullet knocking a full grown man on his ass is also another satisfying thought. It just sounds like everyone is against it so i had to put my thought inthere on how much i liked it.