.45 vs. .357

[DPB]

First I want to apologize if the length of my posts taxes anyone's brain capacity.

Originally Posted by FRISteve

I see/read this way too often. Riddle me this, Batman - what **are** the pressures of 9x19 and 357Sig?

Bet you all will be surprised.

I'm not Batman, but I can google.

Since you asked:

Source: http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

SAAMI max chamber pressure for 9mm is 35,000 PSI. .357 SIG is 40,000 PSI.

This doesn't seem like a lot, except that the max for .357 Magnum is also 35,000 PSI, and the max for .44 Magnum is 36,000.

So, not only is the chamber pressure for .357 SIG appreciably more than 9mm, it is also significantly more than .44 Mag max pressure.

I'm not sure what part of this is supposed to surprise me. Nothing in the above data contradicts anything I've said. I don't know where the spike is on either pressure curve, but since the .357 SIG achieves higher muzzle velocities with comparable bullet weights in identical length barrels, I would speculate it spikes faster.

Regarding some other issues presented:

Yes, I do believe that a steel framed, single stack 1911 is still a "state of the art" combat pistol. Absolutely. I highly suspect that I am not alone in this belief.

NO handgun is suitable for "running gun battles, and barricades." Period. However, it is not generally socially acceptable to carry weaponry to deal with these conditions. Also, I highly suspect that no one carries enough pistol ammo to engage in a "running gun battle," unless there is a whole lot more "running" than there is "battle."

DeltaII5, could you please explain your conclusion that the 9mm is "useless as compared to .40S&W."

[TonyF]

I once read somewhere that glock's in .357 SIG were only rated to about a 15,000 round lifespan. Wish I could recall the source.

[DrakinClaw]

Originally Posted by DeltaII5

Higher velocity will penetrate body armor better. No pistol will penetrate completely of course. Just the like the slower the velocity the farther it will go in sand.

In a combat situation, you will never really depend on a sidearm for it's velocity more so over its stopping power, that is what your primary (rifle) is for. A sidearm is a backup, for when all else fails, sure velocity is great, but if i ever needed to break-out a backup its going to be at very close range, just IMO. Then again, i could be wrong .

Oh and sorry, i meant no offence to you all posting long speaches, no worries.
Drakin

[KeithPA]

Originally Posted by TonyF

I once read somewhere that glock's in .357 SIG were only rated to about a 15,000 round lifespan. Wish I could recall the source.

I'd have to agree. Of course besides SIG themselves, I see probably about half a dozen guns tha that now fire .357 SIG rounds and definately would not rate them as well as a regular firearm (standard, not firing .357 SIG). Just looking at the data along from an engineering standpoint makes me wonder what the lifespan of a firearm in that caliber would. Pressure/velocity/energy is quite a bit for any gun, and that caliber is quite alot of each.

This thread slightly reminds me of a story my friend once told me.

During an "operation" as a Ranger (2 BT) he was in Iraq. He encounter Haj on the the run for the first instance. Him, amongst 3 others fire about 7 rounds at Haj running along with a RPG7. They could see several hits, but Haj kept running. They went and followed him after their shots, to only find out out that all 7 rounds hit him. He had keeled over and bled to death as a result.

The next time on their deployment, their platoon leader had an M1A. Fired two rounds at Haj as he was running away. Only one round hit him, dropped immediately from a knee shot, and bled to death.

This situation he told me about reminded about the difference between and AK/AR. While the rounds weren't exactly the same (being an AK/AR, not M1A), I quickly realized that there is is a difference between penetration and damage.

Velocity is very important, but is by NO means the deciding factor. A far slower round, that is big, can cause much more damage.

[The Drew]

DeltaII5,

That is why I posted the comparison of rounds, To show that while the sig round comes close to mag ballistics, it doesn't quite get there, and in reality the ballistics of the .40 in 155gr trim might be a better self defense round. heavier, larger pill that has the same capacity in the gun as the SIG round. (since the SIG round is based on the .40)

For the best of both worlds in a 9mm framed gun (capacity/power) there is nothing wrong with the .40S&W

That being said, if you jump to the .45, you not only have a heavier round, but you also step up in diameter...

There must be a reason that the military (at least SOCOM) is heading back to .45

As far as I'm concerned the SIG round is an answer to a problem that doesn't exist. It doesn't really offer anything unique except it's penetration capabilities, which may be counterproductive in a personal defense situation.

[G21.45]

Originally Posted by TonyF

More importantly, what is the pressure curve and how quickly does it peak?

Ahh, that seldom recognized, frequently overlooked, powder and primer ignition fact that almost everybody forgets to take into consideration.

How true!

Originally Posted by DPB

NO handgun is suitable for "running gun battles, and barricades." Period. However, it is not generally socially acceptable to carry weaponry to deal with these conditions. Also, I highly suspect that no one carries enough pistol ammo to engage in a "running gun battle," unless there is a whole lot more "running" than there is "battle."

Well, the Laurel Canyon and Homestead shootouts DO come to mind!

Perhaps you need to rethink things. This discussion is better placed in its most common scenario. The original statement did NOT say that any handgun is ideal for, ‘running gun battles and barricades’. That’s an assumption I, for one, would never make; and I hope it wasn’t implied, either!

Begin by looking at any of the police video/convenience store shootouts on TV; and, see for yourself what the circumstances were, and at what the most commonly deployed weapon always seems to be!

Now, while it’s possible to walk around certain countries (like Israel) with an M-4 slung over your shoulder without attracting undue attention, you can’t do the same thing, here, in America! The simple observation needs to be made that a handgun is frequently the ONLY weapon most gunmen will have when suddenly confronted by dire circumstance.

Consequently high capacity, large caliber pistols tend to be more useful and are of greater inherent value during a wide variety of CQB engagements. Don’t forget: When it’s empty, it becomes either a rock or a club. Without an adequate supply of ammunition, the best firearm in the world is worthless!

I know plenty of Americans who carry a pistol with 6 or 7 rounds and believe this is enough. I don’t happen to be one of them. My own usual belt load includes 30 rounds of ammo carried inside two magazines. I, often, have a BUG in an outside pocket, too. Sure, I hope I’ll never actually have to use any of this; but, still, it is nice to know it’s there.

I’ve, also, worked in gun stores that required a minimum of 3 salespeople inside the shop at all times and stashed riot guns every 20 feet, or so, behind the counter. Frankly, I never felt at ease in this situation. (But, this is the Poconos!) Even though I’ve been asked to do it, again, I don’t think I’m going to. Sad to say, but, in 21st century America such precautions seem to be both necessary AND prudent.

Combat mentality and training, also, have a lot to do with things: I, pretty much, gave up single shot, postal shooting many years ago. Nowadays, my usual handgun practice technique involves double and triple taps across multiple targets. Today, whenever I fire a pistol, my entire focus is on where the second and third shots are going to hit. (Cause I already know where the first one will be.)

Originally Posted by DeltaII5

+1 I feel like I'm reading a book sometimes.

45 is very common as compared to .357. But as we have learned from Box O' Truth as informal as it is. Higher velocity will penetrate body armor better. No pistol will penetrate completely of course. Just the like the slower the velocity the farther it will go in sand.

So what’s wrong with books? Far be it from me to disagree with such an esteemed authority as, ‘Box ‘O Truth’, BUT, it ain’t velocity that defeats soft body armor – It’s point configuration! (Think knifepoint.)

Originally Posted by DeltaII5

I haven't heard of anyone complaining that a 45 won't penetrate. I'm curious about the "Hazleton LEO shootout" where someone mentioned about the lack of penetration on 40 SW rounds. Is it a velocity or energy issue? if it is even true they are having problems with penetration.

Neither! Again it was point configuration. As the coroner noted, the culprit was wearing a heavy down jacket.

[DPB]

This is a very interesting discussion, and it's interesting to see how people think.

Actually, G21.45, I understood from post #13 that your choice of a handgun was based on "multiple assailants, running gun battles, and barricades." If I misunderstood, I apologize.

I couldn't find any info on Homestead. At Laurel Canyon (North Hollywood), the bad guys did almost all of the battling, largely controlled who was doing the running, and, had they really intended to break out, probably could have. The police who were trying to maintain the perimeter didn't have anything that would have stopped the withdrawal, if the withdrawal had been planned and executed to the same standard as the initial assault. Any success that the police had was a result of failures on the part of the perpetrators, which wasn't the fault of the police, but they weren't prepared to fight a war outside the bank.

Having said that, I don't fundamentally disagree with the concept that more and bigger bullets in the gun are an advantage. No question at all. However, the decision of what firearm I carry is not independent of other considerations.

First, I'm not trying to prepare for "a wide variety of CQB engagements" when I go to Home Depot. I'm taking a precaution that will give me an advantage in an extreme situation. If I was knowingly going FISHing (Fighting In Someone's House), my loadout would be significantly different. Likewise, I don't have a four point racing harness and roll cage in my truck, because I'm going to Home Depot, not driving the Paris to Dakar Rally. And statistically, there is a much higher probability of being in an auto accident than a shooting.

Second, in all seriousness, could you describe how you dress that effectively conceals a Glock 21, two spare magazines, and a backup gun, in, say, July? Yes, my manner of dress is affected by the fact that I carry a gun, but I am not wearing enough clothing to conceal my war belt during any month of the year.

Finally, a high capacity, large caliber handun is only an advantage if you can hide it AND run it as effectively as you can run a lower caliber or lower capacity gun. I, personally, cannot run a G21 or fat 1911 as well as I can run the smaller versions of these platforms.

One other thing, velocity absolutely defeats soft armor. Knives defeat kevlar because the surface area of the penetrator is minimal. Any defensive handgun bullet has far more surface area on the pentrating surface than a knife. Bullet configuration and construction can play a role, but they are secondary to velocity.

[The Drew]

Originally Posted by DPB

One other thing, velocity absolutely defeats soft armor. Knives defeat kevlar because the surface area of the penetrator is minimal. Any defensive handgun bullet has far more surface area on the pentrating surface than a knife. Bullet configuration and construction can play a role, but they are secondary to velocity.

While you are right that the formula for piercing soft body armor is surface area and velocity, NO handgun short of a FiveseveN with proper ammo should be considered reliable at piercing soft bodyarmor, and even then the effectiveness of the round is somewhat in question.

That being said, if you expect to run into guys wearing body armor, then the alternative should be a headshot.

The point though, is really what level can you comfortably carry and conceal and what type of handgun can you handle the best.

[FRISteve]

Originally Posted by The Drew

While you are right that the formula for piercing soft body armor is surface area and velocity, NO handgun short of a FiveseveN with proper ammo should be considered reliable at piercing soft bodyarmor, and even then the effectiveness of the round is somewhat in question.

I disagree - I know of 2 handgun rounds that have never failed to penetrate vests during my testing. I won't post them, because anyone can read this forum, but do a little digging and you'll find them.

[FRISteve]

Originally Posted by DPB

First I want to apologize if the length of my posts taxes anyone's brain capacity. SAAMI max chamber pressure for 9mm is 35,000 PSI. .357 SIG is 40,000 PSI.

Don't forget 9x19 +P (which is a more fair comparison to 357Sig) - 38,500

This doesn't seem like a lot, except that the max for .357 Magnum is also 35,000 PSI, and the max for .44 Magnum is 36,000.

As mentioned above, you left out 9x19 +P, but my point was that many people say that .40S&W and 357Sig are such "high pressure cartridges" (their words, not mine) - I like to point out the realities.

And while you seem to think 1,500 psi is a huge difference, let's compare it to .45acp and .45acp +P: 21,000 and 23,000 - for a difference between 9x19 +P and .45acp +P of 15,500 - not **that's** a large difference.

What does it all mean? Nada. But when people start discussing the super high pressures of one cartridge versus that of another cartridge, the facts sometimes help.