.45 vs. .357

[G21.45]

Good reply, DPB! I used to buy from Eric @ Ammoman. I’m now buying ammo locally. I just paid $182.00 for 1,000 rounds of Blazer Aluminum 45 acp. One of my acquaintances gets his 45 ammo by the case from either Dick’s or Wal-Mart for between, $198.00 and $210.00. ‘Lawman’ is much better ammo than I’d normally use to practice with. No way would I pay, $250.00 + for a case of 45 acp. (Can’t afford to pay, ‘agency prices’ for my own practice ammo.)

A number of people have told me that the big advantage to those state and federal agencies that have adopted the 357 SIG is that the round excels in barrier penetration and does automobiles particularly well. Personally, this is not a role I’d select for a handgun. (That’s what 308's and TE carbines are for!) The 45 acp is all the cartridge I’ll ever need for thin-skinned targets and pistols. Like you, I feel very safe with a 45 acp pistol in hand – Don’t need more small gun; don’t want any less, either!

Besides, with all the back and forth on handgun cartridges I, myself, place the most significance on: LARGE diameter, LOW pressure bullets with relatively SLOW recoil characteristics. Now that I’m carrying a polymer frame pistol these attributes are, even more, important to me.

This means that it's 45 acp for me, everyday, all the way.

- Cheers!

[DPB]

That's a smoking deal for .45. I only used the Lawman ammo as my example because that was what Ammoman had in comparable loads for both calibers. I don't think that Lawman ball is anything special, but it's relative rarity makes it seem that way and it does tend to be overpriced.

Agree with your points, although I don't feel under armed with a 9mm. My big issue with the .357 SIG is that higher velocity or energy always come with a price, and the biggest price is speed on follow up shots. If I can run, say, a 9mm Glock at a certain speed, I will be measurably slower with a .40 or .357 SIG out of the same sized gun. To me, speed on follow up shots against the same target or multiple targets is more meaningful than a relatively small improvement in terminal ballistics.

I can actually run a steel frame 1911 faster than anything else, but since non-.45 1911s set up for fighting are nearly nonexistant, there aren't any common guns in higher energy cartridges like .357 SIG for there to be a meaningful comparison. I'm not aware of any production .38 Super that is made for anything other than competition, so again there isn't any direct comparison to be made.

If you want penetration on auto bodies, one of the best things commonly available is 5.56 M855. I know that the gun writers like to talk about how it fails constantly in combat (which is a substance that resembles what comes out of the south bound end of a north bound bull), but it cuts metal as well or better than anything short of a true AP round. I've seen it cut 5/8ths of an inch of rolled steel at 500 plus meters out of a 14.5 inch barrel. 7.62 sniper ammo out of a 24 inch bolt gun was bouncing off that same plate without leaving a mark. M855 will ventilate an automobile and whatever is inside it in short order.

[DR. GLOCK]

Originally Posted by G21.45

Not to mention the fact that the 357 SIG is highly impractical to practice with, shoots through just about anything you point it at: engine blocks, car doors, the sidewall of your neighbor's house, 3 people in a row, etc.

Two of my acquaintances rushed out and bought 357 SIG's back when they were all the rage 2 or 3 years ago. Their new pistols turned out to be tough to get cartridges for, tough to reload for, and expensive to shoot. They were, also, troubled by lots of recoil, and lots of chamber pressure, too.

Both of these guys have ended up trading their new 357 SIG's for 45 acp pistols; and I got to say, 'I told ya so!'

Why didn't they just buy .40 barrels?

[G21.45]

Good question! Probably because neither one of them owned a 45 acp at the time; and they, both, liked shooting my 1911's and G-21's. But that is a good question; and, now that I think about it, since buying their own 45's (One guy, now, has two!) nobody has gone out an bought a 40 - either!

[DR. GLOCK]

Originally Posted by DPB

I was going to say that ammo was more expensive, but I checked and it's not. Ammo price is comparable.

Assuming that .357 SIG ballistics are indeed comparable to .357 Mag (as advertised), then they are also comparable to .45 ACP. So the terminal ballistics would seem to be pretty close.

It is difficult to compare recoil, since there are few platforms that are available in both calibers. The .357 SIGs I've seen seemed to recoil "sharper" than .45s, but not necessarily harder, if that makes any sense at all.

If you reload, the .45 is a straight wall case, and the .357 is a bottleneck. Straight walled is simpler to reload, and the lower operating pressures will allow you to use the brass longer.

If you are planning to shoot a lot, here is another point to consider: .45 guns were pretty much all built to be .45 guns. Most of the .357 SIGs are built on 9mm platforms. Given that the .357 SIG operates at significantly higher pressures than 9mm, I would expect the service life of the guns to be a lot shorter, with more parts breakage along the way. Of course, this will mostly only be true with a hard use gun, and a quality .357 SIG will probably outlast the shooting 99% of owners will do with it.

Like I said a $100 .40 barrel would have solved these "problems". If thier problem was with the caliber and not the gun.

[The Drew]

here is speer comparison

23918 357 SIG 125 GDHP Muzzle vel 1375fps PF 171.875
23920 357 Magnum 125 GDHP Muzzle vel 1450fps PF 181.25

23960 357 Magnum 158 GDHP Muzzle vel 1235fps PF 195.13
23961 40 S&W 155 GDHP Muzzle vel 1200fps PF 186

23969 45 Auto +P 200 GDHP Muzzle Vel 1080fps PF 216

23617 9mm Luger +P 124 GDHP 20 Muzzle vel 1220 PF 151.28


There it is, make of it what you will, but the .45acp +P load has the highest power factor of all of them. Does this make it the better manstopper, not necessarily, but it does have more "power".

Also you can see that the lighter 155gr .40 load compares well to the 158gr .357mag, and that the 125 sig load is trailing by the same margin to the 125gr magnum as well.

So the bottom line is that neither the SIG round or the S&W round actually duplicate the magnum's ballistics. They come close. And the .45 still has the ability to throw a large pill at a fairly high speed in +p trim.

[FRISteve]

Originally Posted by DPB

Most of the .357 SIGs are built on 9mm platforms. Given that the .357 SIG operates at significantly higher pressures than 9mm

I see/read this way too often. Riddle me this, Batman - what **are** the pressures of 9x19 and 357Sig?

Bet you all will be surprised.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by FRISteve

I see/read this way too often. Riddle me this, Batman - what **are** the pressures of 9x19 and 357Sig?

Bet you all will be surprised.

More importantly, what is the pressure curve and how quickly does it peak?

[DrakinClaw]

wow, you guys likes to write books to your responses lol. As you can read before, the size difference is marginal, however the .45 acp is the most COMMON round in the us for a handgun, you will never have trouble finding it, sig however........
Drak

[KeithPA]

Originally Posted by DrakinClaw

wow, you guys likes to write books to your responses lol. As you can read before, the size difference is marginal, however the .45 acp is the most COMMON round in the us for a handgun, you will never have trouble finding it, sig however........
Drak

+1 I feel like i'm reading a book sometimes.

45 is very common as compared to .357. But as we have learned from Box O' Truth as informal as it is. Higher velocity will penetrate body armor better. No pistol will penetrate completely of course. Just the like the slower the velocity the farther it will go in sand.

The only thing I learn out of this is 9mm Luger is pretty much useless as compared to a 40 SW.

I haven't heard of anyone complaining that a 45 won't penetrate. I'm curious about the "Hazleton LEO shootout" where someone mentioned about the lack of penetration on 40 SW rounds. Is it a velocity or energy issue? if it is even true they are having problems wiht penetration.