Ammo Test: Winchester Ranger-T 230gr +P 45 ACP

[Prof. Chaos]

really not happy with the carry ammo i had chosen.. time to find something else.

[CHEMICAL]

Just for shits and giggles try 165 grain Corbon +p JHPs. Let me know what you think.

[Brick]

There's tests and there's tests. Would the results have been different if the jugs were tied together so there was no loss of energy from the jugs dancing against each other? Would it have been different if you hit at the center of mass of the target jug instead of off center?

With thanks to Legion Prime here's a link to a ballistics gelatin test of multiple projectiles and multiple factory loads in multiple calibers:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

You can find this originally posted in the "Do you Carry Reloads In Your CCW" thread in the Pistols section.

[Tomcat088]

Originally Posted by Prof. Chaos

really not happy with the carry ammo i had chosen.. time to find something else.

I don't quite understand you're so disappointed. It doesn't seem like all that scientific of a test, and in my opinion isn't really in conditions that you'd typically experience in the real world or a self defense scenario.

Honestly, shooting water jugs doesn't tell you much at all. Water behaves quite differently from flesh. Water behaves quite differently from ballistics gel, which is made under certain conditions and temperatures to behave similarly to flesh. I also don't see the point of shooting through 4 layers of denim. Why did you decide to shoot through so many layers of denim? In a self defense scenario where you're aiming CM, 4 layers of denim just doesn't seem close to practical. I mean even if he was wearing a denim jacket that had a denim liner, that would be 2 layers of denim. Then let's say that he's wearing a denim shirt, so that's 3 layers. I've just never seen anybody wear even 3 layers of denim center mass. Even if you're shooting at the guy, going through his jacket, through and in his pants, that's still not 4 layers of denim.

Denim is notorious for clogging hollowpoints, so I understand why you chose to put it on the front of a jug. It's just interesting to me that all the sudden it's 4 layers. It greatly increases the chances of the hollowpoint clogging, and just doesn't seem lik all that realistic of a scenario. Even with the hollowpoint going through that much denim and being partially clogged, it still halfway opened. It seemed to get enough penetration, which I think is one of the most important things. It looks like under some pretty unfair conditions, they performed pretty fair to me. I carry the EXACT same ammunition, and I'm not discouraged by those results. In my mind, worst case scenario if they clog, is they then act like fmj's and penetrate deep enough to be fatal, placement is everything. It's not like "energy dump" is an effective means of incapacitation and killing in pistol cartridges.

I really just don't understand what you think this "test" really tells you. I don't understand exactly why you're so discouraged by the "results". I guess interpretation of the results is everything.

[Prof. Chaos]

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL

Just for shits and giggles try 165 grain Corbon +p JHPs. Let me know what you think.

i've got a list of stuff to try out haha ill add that.

[EODguy]

Take a leg from an old pair of jeans (2 layers) hang it in front of a raw beef brisket, behind that hang some raw beef ribs then behind it all put your water filled milk jug. See if you think it will work then, you opinion may change. Both of those cuts of meat are not expensive, zip tie them together for better consistency.

[Prof. Chaos]

Originally Posted by Brick

There's tests and there's tests. Would the results have been different if the jugs were tied together so there was no loss of energy from the jugs dancing against each other? Would it have been different if you hit at the center of mass of the target jug instead of off center?

With thanks to Legion Prime here's a link to a ballistics gelatin test of multiple projectiles and multiple factory loads in multiple calibers:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

You can find this originally posted in the "Do you Carry Reloads In Your CCW" thread in the Pistols section.

"center mass" on the jugs is actually pretty close to where i hit them... if you hit them higher, you run into the handle area.

thanks for the link.

[Prof. Chaos]

Originally Posted by Tomcat088

I don't quite understand you're so disappointed. It doesn't seem like all that scientific of a test, and in my opinion isn't really in conditions that you'd typically experience in the real world or a self defense scenario.

Honestly, shooting water jugs doesn't tell you much at all. Water behaves quite differently from flesh. Water behaves quite differently from ballistics gel, which is made under certain conditions and temperatures to behave similarly to flesh. I also don't see the point of shooting through 4 layers of denim. Why did you decide to shoot through so many layers of denim? In a self defense scenario where you're aiming CM, 4 layers of denim just doesn't seem close to practical. I mean even if he was wearing a denim jacket that had a denim liner, that would be 2 layers of denim. Then let's say that he's wearing a denim shirt, so that's 3 layers. I've just never seen anybody wear even 3 layers of denim center mass. Even if you're shooting at the guy, going through his jacket, through and in his pants, that's still not 4 layers of denim.

Denim is notorious for clogging hollowpoints, so I understand why you chose to put it on the front of a jug. It's just interesting to me that all the sudden it's 4 layers. It greatly increases the chances of the hollowpoint clogging, and just doesn't seem lik all that realistic of a scenario. Even with the hollowpoint going through that much denim and being partially clogged, it still halfway opened. It seemed to get enough penetration, which I think is one of the most important things. It looks like under some pretty unfair conditions, they performed pretty fair to me. I carry the EXACT same ammunition, and I'm not discouraged by those results. In my mind, worst case scenario if they clog, is they then act like fmj's and penetrate deep enough to be fatal, placement is everything. It's not like "energy dump" is an effective means of incapacitation and killing in pistol cartridges.

I really just don't understand what you think this "test" really tells you. I don't understand exactly why you're so discouraged by the "results". I guess interpretation of the results is everything.

my understanding is that 4 layers of denim is representative of thick/heavy clothing, which makes plenty of sense. and as far as im concerned, i hit center mass, low in the water jugs. any higher and you run into the handle area.

[Prof. Chaos]

Originally Posted by EODguy

Take a leg from an old pair of jeans (2 layers) hang it in front of a raw beef brisket, behind that hang some raw beef ribs then behind it all put your water filled milk jug. See if you think it will work then, you opinion may change. Both of those cuts of meat are not expensive, zip tie them together for better consistency.

lol how about you buy the meat and do that test? i gotta go buy new ammo.

[EODguy]

Originally Posted by Prof. Chaos

lol how about you buy the meat and do that test? i gotta go buy new ammo.

Well I get your point, but it would be more real world than a water filled milk jug. And no I was never attacked by a rampaging cow. If this is your carry ammo would you not want it to be as thoroughly tested as possible by you. I accept that a 230gr 45ACP (non FMJ) drilled COM will end the fight, more importantly if it is quickly followed up by more of the same.