[lildobe]

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Forum Member bdevil73 got in contact with the Times Online reporter covering the case:

From: Brian Munoz <bmunoz73@comcast.net>
Sent: Fri 8/29/2008 11:55 PM
To: Vidonic Bill <bvidonic@timesonline.com>
Subject: RE: Man arrested for having gun at rally


For the record, in PA you do not need a license of any time to openly carry a firearm. If you are above 18 years of age and are not prohibited from owning firearms, you may openly carry them without a license provided you are

not in a vehicle. This is a right guaranteed by Article 1, Section 21 of the Pennsylvania Constitution and has been upheld by the PA Supreme Court. This man was arrested simply because someone did not like what he was doing even

though it was legal ad he was well within his rights do do so. Although I wasn't there and can not be 100% certain I believe the flier I have attached is the same one Mr. Noble was distributing. There is a lot of excellent

information concerning PA gun laws with cites to relevant statutes and court cases. I sincerely hope you will research this matter further and post a follow up article.

Sincerely,

Brian Munoz

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Responce from Bill Vidonic:
Hi Brian...
Still trying to determine if he had a conceal-carry permit. If he did, he was not concealing the firearm.
However, John was in a secure area.
Thanks for the e-mail!
Bill V.

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From: Brian Munoz [mailto:bmunoz73@comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 10:21 AM
To: Vidonic Bill
Subject: Re: Man arrested for having gun at rally

Good morning MR.Vidonic,
Thank you for your reply. I am glad to see you are researching this story. If the firearm was carried in a manner that made it visible to anyone who passed by Mr. Noble, it is considered to be carried openly. One does not need to have any type of "permit" to carry in this manner. For the record, PA does not issue concealed-carry permits. What they do issue is called a license to Carry a Firearm, or LTCF. Possession of an LTCF is not required to openly carry a handgun unless you are in a city of the First class. Currently, Philadelphia is the only city considered to be such. For further clarification, possession of an LTCF does not mean you MUST conceal your firearm, only that you may. Possession of a LTCF does not determine whether or not someone is carrying a firearm concealed. It determines the persons legal ability to do so. The flier I provided for you in my initial e-mail contains a wealth of information on PA gun laws and provides cite for you to verify the information. It is a great tool to use in your research of this story.

In regards to the secure area, I was not at the rally but drove through town a short time earlier. I saw what areas were blocked off. Will you be publishing a follow up to explain exactly where Mr. Noble was arrested? Was he in fact within the security perimeter? I don't recall whether Market Street was cordoned off or not.

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Responce from Bill Vidonic:
See Sunday’s paper..and yeah, saying concealed-carry permit is misleading...wrong phrasing on my part.
And you’re good..that’s the exact flier he was going to pass out.
I was happy though, when I talked to him this afternoon, he said he felt I was very fair to him in Saturday’s story. I was glad about that. I’m not out to trash anyone.
Thanks for all the information.

Formum member normanvin was also in contact with the author of the Times story:

Originally Posted by normanvin

I got a response from the aurthor.
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Vidonic Bill" <BVidonic@timesonline.com>
> Hey Norman...
> Do you have a number for John? I'd like to talk to him this morning....
> Couple things...
> 1) I believe he WAS in a security zone, actually.
> 2) I am still trying to determine if he had a conceal-carry permit. If he does,
> he can't openly wear the gun like he did Friday.
>
> I appreciate the e-mails..thanks!
>
> Bill Vidonic

my response back

I have never met John. So I can not supply a phone number.

1.As far as I know he was on a public sidewalk.
2.There is no such thing as a concealed carry permit in pa. There is a license to carry firearms. yes he can carry a fire arm in the open like he was. Pa. is an open carry state. This means that you do not need this or any

license to carry openly.

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Later that evening, after Mtn Jack had been released, he spoke on the phone with Pa Patriot. Throughout the past week, he has remained in contact with Rich. These are the cold-hard facts, from Jacks side:

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

I spoke at length with Jack on the phone and we will be posting some info tomorrow (Sat).

For now we know and will release this:
He was illegally arrested
His property illegally seized
He was NOT cited at the scene but was told he will be cited with at least two criminal charges.

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

I think the issue is pretty clear from the reports, eyewitnesses and facts of the event.

Jack passed no security check or imaginary unannounced "zone".
Obama was not there
The event area was not where jack was.
The area Jack was in was open to the public. There was tape on some sides of the parks adjacent to the rally park, but they were apparently crowd measures, unknown since they were not marked. Sidewalk repair?. Either way they were not security measures if people were free to enter the park and were doing so unhindered. Only Jack was singled out.

The secure area was well marked and established. Including metal detectors. This area was NOT where jack was.

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

The Secret Service vetted [Of or pertaining to an investigation, especially one that has been completed] and released him.

If he was in a "gun free/secure area" he would still be in FEDERAL prison.

As such there is absolutely NO question that he was not breaching any "secure" area.

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Fact:
People were congregating in Macintosh and Quay parks with political signs (on sticks).

Fact:
Those signs-on-sticks are not permitted in the rally (beyond the security checkpoint) They only allow paper/cardboard signs with no "sticks". WHY is that? Because the sticks are "weapons".

Conclusion:
So since jack was arrested for apparently simply possessing a "weapon", those weapons (sticks) possessed by the other people in the adjacent parks should have been grounds for arrest too.

But none of them were arrested.

We also heard from two members who were at the rally, and confirmed that Mtn Jack was NOT in the "secure" area:

Originally Posted by joe15003

I was at the rally in Irvine park in Beaver PA. The Zip code for beaver is 15009. I checked google maps and the location where they are stating mtn jack as detained(arrested) was NOT in the area where secret service was doing searches. Please let me know if there is anything I can do. I can make phone calls, talk to people and I have let my family know what he did was not illegal

Originally Posted by BeaverHilltop

I was at the rally last night and while I did not see anyone get arrested I did get a ticket and was admitted into the secure area. Unless he sunk in (highly unlikely) I am sure he was outside the secure area. If he sunk [sic] in he would be in jail by now. I had to wait in a line 3 blocks long to pass through the metal detector. They found my wire framed glass and a dime in my pocket. I am positive they would not have missed a firearm or a person in line would have spotted it. There were plenty of people outside the secure area.

Greg Rotz made up a detailed map of the area in which the incident occurred, which can be seen here:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...b4dc29cd3&z=17



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OCDO press release:

Formatted Version:
http://paopencarry.org/beaver/beaver.pdf
_______________________________________


Text version:

OpenCarry.org
For Immediate Release – August 31, 2008

PA Police Follow “Smoketown 6” (*1) Playbook in Beaver County!

Did Obama’s Secret Service Detail Order
PA Police to Suspend Right to Bear Arms in Entire Town?

Here we go again. When a Presidential candidate comes to town in Pennsylvania, Americans had better “watch what they say, watch what they do.” (*2)

Last Friday Beaver County resident John (“Jack”) Noble was just doing his normal thing – passing out some fliers about Pennsylvania gun rights in a park while openly carrying his holstered “small-caliber handgun.” (*3) And then the police began breaking laws.

Let’s be clear on the facts:

• Mr. Noble was not at the Obama event – he was merely in McIntosh Park “near the Obama event,” (*4) which was scheduled to be held later that evening at Irvine Park across Market Street. (*5)

• Mr. Noble did not breach “a secured perimeter of a presidential candidate political rally” as falsely alleged by PA State Police Trooper Shawn Schexnaildre, (*6) nor did Noble ignore any signs or warnings.

• Barrack Obama’s Secret Service detail appears to be implicated in the unlawful police action to clear the streets of any gun carriers (*7) throughout the town of Beaver, PA, just like they were implicated a few years ago in ordering the arrest of the “Smoketown 6” where President Bush drove through Pennsylvania.

“‘I am a threat to no one. Mr. Obama doesn't trump my constitutional rights. The president of the United States doesn't trump my constitutional rights,’ said John Noble, who was handcuffed, questioned for about two hours and then told by state police that he would receive two citations for disorderly conduct.” (*8)

But here’s the rub - Jack carries openly through that town routinely, and Obama being there does not change state law.

Unlike the “Smoketown 6” protesters, Jack Noble was not wearing a thong or “protesting.” Jack was just passing out fliers and openly carrying his holstered handgun – activities “clearly protected” by the Pennsylvania and federal constitutions. (*9) The idea of the police needing to verify Jack’s “permit to carry” (*10) (reported by one news outlet) is a canard – in Pennsylvania, like most states, no permit is required to openly carry a holstered handgun at age 18.

Further, as can be verified by one of several concealed carriers observing the police misconduct, Jack was in McIntosh Park, and not Irvine Park where Obama’s private event was scheduled to be held later in the evening. (*11) And Jack was not attempting to gain entry into, or get in the path of, Obama’s private event.

When “deputies asked why he had a gun, Noble replied, ‘Because I’m an American,’ and one of the deputies responded, ‘Well, you’re under arrest.’ Noble was hustled to a nearby [United States Secret Service] vehicle, and state police took him to the Brighton Township barracks to [interrogate] him.” (*12)

Adding insult to injury, Pennsylvania State Police officers refused to identify themselves to Noble, never issued a summons, but still confiscated his handgun without issuing a receipt as required by the Pennsylvania Uniform

Firearms Act which provides that

The owner of any seized or confiscated firearms shall be provided with a signed and dated written receipt by the appropriate law enforcement agency. This receipt shall include, but not limited to, a detailed identifying description indicating the serial number and condition of the firearm. (*13)

Nobody’s questioning the right of Presidential candidates to hold private events. But the Pennsylvania police must not become constitution-violating-goons for Presidential candidates or their Secret Service details.

OpenCarry.org calls on Governor Rendell to order a halt to unlawful police-state tactics at Presidential campaign events so as to preclude any more “Smoketown 6” or “Beaver County Jack” incidents.

###

Media Contacts:
PAOpenCarry.org Founder:
Rich Banks/admin@paopencarry.com
OpenCarry.org co-founders:
Mike Stollenwerk/Mike@OpenCarry.org
John Pierce/John@OpenCarry.org
__________________________________________________ _____
FOOTNOTES

1. See generally Shannon P. Duffy, Thong-Clad Protesters Stripped of Civil Rights Suit, Legal Intelligencer, May 23, 2008 (reporting that despite fact that disorderly conduct charges were dismissed, police Defendants in civil
   
   suit were “entitled to ‘qualified immunity’” because the wearing of thongs as expressive conduct (protesting Abu Graib Prison abuses in Iraq) was not “clearly established”), available at
   
   http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202421637055.
   
2. See Ari Fleisher, at http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0010926-5.html (quoting Presidential spokesman as telling press “Americans . . . need to watch what they say, watch what they do. This is not a time for remarks like that; there never is.”).
3. Bill Vidonic, Man arrested for having gun at rally, Beaver County Times, August 29, 2008, available at http://www.timesonline.com/articles/...2890214530.txt. See also Man Brought Gun, Bible To Obama Event In Beaver, The Pittsburgh Channel.com, August 30, 2008, at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26464328.
4. Brian C. Rittmeyer, Beaver County man defends carrying gun near Obama rally, Tribune-Review, August 31, 2008, available at http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_585805.html.
5. See map at http://tinyurl.com/5pjcwy provided by PAOpenCarry.org.
6. Brian C. Rittmeyer, Beaver County man defends carrying gun near Obama rally, Tribune-Review, August 31, 2008 (emphasis added), available at http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_585805.html.
7. Milan Simonich, Industry man contests arrest outside Obama rally, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, August 30, 2008, available at http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08243/908351-100.stm.
8. See, e.g., McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Com'n, 514 U.S. 334 (1995) (handing out fliers in public protected by First Amendment); District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S.Ct. 2783, 2793 (2008) (“At the time of the founding, as now, to ‘bear’ meant to, ‘carry.’”); Id. at 2809 ("In Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 251 (1846), the Georgia Supreme Court construed the Second Amendment as protecting the “natural right of self-defence” and therefore struck down a ban on carrying pistols openly. Its opinion perfectly captured the way in which the operative clause of the Second Amendment furthers the purpose announced in the prefatory clause, in continuity with the English right.") (emphasis added).
9. Frankly, Jack is well known by the Beaver County police community as a frequent open carrier and holder of a background check vetted Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms (needed to conceal carry) issued by the Beaver County Sherriff.
10. See map at http://tinyurl.com/5pjcwy created by PAOpenCarry.org.
11. Bill Vidonic, Man arrested for having gun at rally, Beaver County Times, August 29, 2008, available at http://www.timesonline.com/articles/...2890214530.txt. See also Bill Vidonic, Man says he had right to carry gun to rally, Beaver County times, August 30, 2008, available at http://www.timesonline.com/articles/...8582222905.txt.
12. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6105(f)(4) (emphasis added).

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Other forum thread on this topic:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/15537.html
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/15801.html
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/15561.html
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/15588.html

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ama-rally.html

There was reportedly a thread on GlockTalk about this as well, but I've been unable to locate it at this time. If you have a link to it, PM me!

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The arresting officer, Trooper Shawn L. Schexnaildre was found to be a 2005 academy graduate:

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

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The FUNDRAISER for Mtn Jack's Legal Fund can be found here:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...tain-jack.html