Quote:
Originally Posted by PA-Joe
This is the same question as asking "Do the police have the right to ask you for a driver's license simply because you are seen driving a car?" I think that would be an illegal "Terry Stop!"
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that's how i had always thought of it, too. but then a lawyer posted an interesting take on it...
he thought the courts would allow a request for an LTCF just because a police officer somehow suspected you were carrying a concealed gun (and this would be analogous to open carrying in philly since you need an LTCF to do it).
he thought the courts would follow the rationale of: "Most adults have a driver's license. Thus, if you see an adult driving a car, it is reasonable to assume he is licensed. However, very few people (relative to the entire population) have LTCFs. Thus, if you see someone carrying a gun, it is not necessarily reasonable to assume that person has an LTCF...and, statistically speaking, might be quite reasonable to suspect he does not."
there are two cases that seem to back this idea up. commonwealth v. robinson and commonwealth v. stevenson. i have never been able to find a copy of commonwealth v. robinson, but in commonwealth v. stevenson, the courts did uphold a terry search (and all evidence that came about thereafter) which the police did solely on the suspicion that a man was carrying a concealed firearm.
there were some extenuating cicumstances, though.
1. the police officer involved had specific training in spotting concealed weapons.
2. the police officer suspected the gun was being carried in a pocket without a holster...and noted that people who carry guns as part of their jobs and LTCF holders tend to carry in holsters. so, in the officer's view, the fact that he suspected the gun was in a pocket and not in a holster contributed to his suspicion that the guy was carrying the gun illegally.
3. after making eye contact with the officers, the man started acting nervous and kept "checking" the pocket in which the officer suspected he was carrying the gun.
(and, of course, it turned out that the guy did have an concealed gun...did not have an LTCF...and did also have crack cocaine on him.)
the court took all of this into account in saying that the totality of the circumstances did, in fact, give an officer with the specific training this officer had RAS to believe the man was illegally carrying a gun.
so, imho, because of the rest of the circumstances, this case does not directly answer the question of "can an officer detain you, terry search you, and demand your LTCF solely because he knows you are carrying a gun?", but it certainly leans very hard in the direction of "yes, he can".