[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by Murf_The_Surf

NineseveN asks:

“what is your agenda by bringing Andy Barniskis personally up for discussion on a site where he doesn’t participate, is not a member and is relatively unknown to the membership?”

Perhaps the membership should become more familiar with Andy Barniskis. After all, he hates PAFOA, just as he hates the rest of the effective grass roots gun groups in PA. Here is a typical Barniskis comment concerning PAFOA: “I don't know how you stomach that PAFOA crowd. What a bunch of jerks…”

Context buddy, learn it, live it, love it, use it. That was a response to something I wrote, ironically enough, about how Harry Schneider and some other people similar to yourself attacked me for posting something about our newfound reciprocity with West Virginia. Even though, as I stated, Harry's PM to me was polite, I was still threatened with blame if the deal fell through because I hi-lited an inequity in the changes to the WV code. This was not the first time that Mr. Schneider and some people that affiliate themselves with PSA/FOAC/ACSL etc.. have done such things. I don't want to air dirty laundry, but you brought this one up by taking something Andy said out of context in order to try and make him look bad to the current audience...enjoy the read (again):

Andy, thus far, both reciprocity agreements have been published on the respective AG websites, and there has not been any additional requirements added to PA like mandatory training. I do find this a little conspicuous with the PICS system "upgrade" and downtime scheduled for 9/2 through 9/6, but it's probably premature to go on the war path. I suspect the PICS upgrade could be the addition of more or more accurate mental health records in light of the Virginia Tech shooting or even something completely unrelated.

I have already been chided by a few people for pointing out what I said in my original e-mail to you. I was told not to illuminate the fact that the reciprocity agreement doesn't strictly comply with West Virginia law or their previously stated policy (hell, I posted the law and I got some flak from people and a small note of concern from an activist that I won't name for that too). Personally, I don't get that. Anyone that wants to read that section of the WV code can clearly see the words. The agreements seem to comply with PA policy and law perfectly however.

It's true that their could be ulterior motives in this. What happens when someone figures out that there's a slight inequity to the agreement as it jives with WV law? Do they threaten to drop reciprocity unless PA adds that requirement to the permit process? Will the sportsmen coalitions and gun owners go for that or will we simply allow the agreement to drop and hold to how good we have it compared to some other states?

Personally, I don't see a problem with not matching training requirements as the more practical sticking point between states should be whether or not one state has 24/7 access to check on an out of state permit to ensure that it is valid, which Pennsylvania supplies via a toll-free number (we've had this for years). The training requirement is functionally useless, as problems have not manifested in states that are shall issue sans training requirement versus states without CCW or those with CCW and a training requirement.

Here's a similar discussion from PAFOA about the mandatory training issue, some good points were raised if anyone cares to check it out. http://www.pafoa.org/forum/showthrea...eferrerid=2258

Aside from that, it shouldn't be all that problematic as Florida, Virginia and North Carolina each have solid reciprocity agreements with PA and they too have training requirements and other standards above and beyond what PA has.


Having said all of that, in my opinion reciprocity with West Virginia is a good thing for a number of PA residents, and I applaud it, but only so long as it doesn't come with further restrictions, fees, standards or requirements, which thus far appears to be the case. IF this is a Trojan Horse for someone, there should be hell to pay indeed. For now, I'm giving credit where it is due, which is to the West Virginia Civil Defense League on the WV side and to Kim Stolfer and Harry Schneider on the PA side according to messages and posts on PAFOA and a couple of PA RBKA lists. There were likely others involved, I just don't know who (so they can take their own fair share of credit as they please).

However, as the above people deserve kudos now, if this turns out to be something other than what it is currently being presented as, I have no doubt that the blame will be focused on them whether or not they truly had anything to do with the sinister undertow at all.



Here's what I found perplexing though. If I am reading the code and the bills right, the language of WV law USED to say "The GOVERNOR may execute reciprocity agreements on behalf of the state of West Virginia with states or political subdivisions which have SIMILAR gun permitting laws and which recognize and honor West Virginia licenses issued pursuant to section four of this article;" (CAPS emphasis mine). Prior to what was in effect earlier this year, even though the language said "similar", the Governor and PTB felt that PA laws were not similar enough, due mostly to the lack of a training requirement (which is what they told me some time ago when I inquired about reciprocity).

This is how the law read at that time (and seemingly still does on the WV statutes page (http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/61/masterfrmFrm.htm )

>>>>>>>
§61-7-6. Exceptions as to prohibitions against carrying concealed deadly weapons.

The licensure provisions set forth in this article do not apply to:
(1) Any person carrying a deadly weapon upon his or her own premises; nor shall anything herein prevent a person from carrying any firearm, unloaded, from the place of purchase to his or her home, residence or place of business or to a place of repair and back to his or her home, residence or place of business, nor shall anything herein prohibit a person from possessing a firearm while hunting in a lawful manner or while traveling from his or her home, residence or place of business to a hunting site and returning to his or her home, residence or place of business;
(2) Any person who is a member of a properly organized target-shooting club authorized by law to obtain firearms by purchase or requisition from this state or from the United States for the purpose of target practice from carrying any pistol, as defined in this article, unloaded, from his or her home, residence or place of business to a place of target practice and from any place of target practice back to his or her home, residence or place of business, for using any such weapon at a place of target practice in training and improving his or her skill in the use of the weapons;
(3) Any law-enforcement officer or law-enforcement official as defined in section one, article twenty-nine, chapter thirty of this code;
(4) Any employee of the West Virginia division of corrections duly appointed pursuant to the provisions of section five, article five, chapter twenty-eight of this code while the employee is on duty;
(5) Any member of the armed forces of the United States or the militia of this state while the member is on duty;
(6) Any circuit judge, including any retired circuit judge designated senior status by the supreme court of appeals of West Virginia, prosecuting attorney, assistant prosecuting attorney or a duly appointed investigator employed by a prosecuting attorney;
(7) Any resident of another state who has been issued a license to carry a concealed weapon by a state or a political subdivision which has entered into a reciprocity agreement with this state. The GOVERNOR may execute reciprocity agreements on behalf of the state of West Virginia with states or political subdivisions which have SIMILAR gun permitting laws and which recognize and honor West Virginia licenses issued pursuant to section four of this article;
(8) Any federal law-enforcement officer or federal police officer authorized to carry a weapon in the performance of the officer's duty; and
(9) Any Hatfield-McCoy regional recreation authority ranger while the ranger is on duty.

<<<<<<<


Enter HB 3074 from this year, effective June 7th, 2007.
http://www.legis.state.wv.us/Bill_St...=RS&btype=bill
>>>>>>>
N ACT to amend and reenact §61-7-4 and §61-7-6 of the Code of West Virginia, 1931, as amended; and to amend said code by adding thereto a new section, designated §61-7-6a, all relating to the carrying of concealed weapons; clarifying the scope of a concealed weapons permit; amending reciprocity requirements; authorizing the Attorney General to investigate and execute reciprocity agreements with other states pertaining to the mutual recognition of permits or licenses to carry concealed handguns; setting forth minimum standards which must be met before such reciprocity agreements may be executed; clarifying the scope of valid out-of-state permits that may be recognized in West Virginia; establishing a registry of states with which West Virginia has entered into reciprocal agreements; and requiring the State Police to provide the public with a list of the states which have entered into reciprocity agreements.

Be it enacted by the Legislature of West Virginia:
That §61-7-4 and §61-7-6 of the Code of West Virginia, 1931, as amended, be amended and reenacted; and that said code be amended by adding thereto a new section, designated §61-7-6a, all to read as follows:
ARTICLE 7. DANGEROUS WEAPONS.
§61-7-4. License to carry deadly weapons; how obtained.

[removed 61-7-4 text as unnecessary to this discussion] - NineseveN

§61-7-6. Exceptions as to prohibitions against carrying concealed deadly weapons.

The licensure provisions set forth in this article do not apply to:
(1) Any person carrying a deadly weapon upon his or her own premises; nor shall anything herein prevent a person from carrying any firearm, unloaded, from the place of purchase to his or her home, residence or place of business or to a place of repair and back to his or her home, residence or place of business, nor shall anything herein prohibit a person from possessing a firearm while hunting in a lawful manner or while traveling from his or her home, residence or place of business to a hunting site and returning to his or her home, residence or place of business;
(2) Any person who is a member of a properly organized target-shooting club authorized by law to obtain firearms by purchase or requisition from this state or from the United States for the purpose of target practice from carrying any pistol, as defined in this article, unloaded, from his or her home, residence or place of business to a place of target practice and from any place of target practice back to his or her home, residence or place of business, for using any such weapon at a place of target practice in training and improving his or her skill in the use of the weapons;
(3) Any law-enforcement officer or law-enforcement official as defined in section one, article twenty-nine, chapter thirty of this code;
(4) Any employee of the West Virginia Division of Corrections duly appointed pursuant to the provisions of section five, article five, chapter twenty-eight of this code while the employee is on duty;
(5) Any member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the militia of this state while the member is on duty;
(6) Any circuit judge, including any retired circuit judge designated senior status by the Supreme Court of Appeals of West Virginia, Prosecuting Attorney, Assistant Prosecuting Attorney or a duly appointed investigator employed by a Prosecuting Attorney;
(7) Any resident of another state who holds a valid license to carry a concealed weapon by a state or a political subdivision which has entered into a reciprocity agreement with this state, subject to the provisions and limitations set forth in section six- a of this article;
(8) Any federal law-enforcement officer or federal police officer authorized to carry a weapon in the performance of the officer's duty; and
(9) Any Hatfield-McCoy regional recreation authority ranger while the ranger is on duty.

§61-7-6a. Reciprocity; out-of-state concealed handgun permits.
(a) A holder of a valid out-of-state permit or license to carry a concealed handgun, as issued by another state with which the State of West Virginia has executed a reciprocity agreement, shall be recognized as valid in this state, if the following conditions are met:
(1) The permit or license holder is a resident of the issuing state;
(2) The permit or license holder is 21 years or older;
(3) The permit or license is in his or her immediate possession;
(4) The permit or license holder is not a resident of the state of West Virginia; and,
(5) The State of West Virginia has executed a valid and effective reciprocity agreement with the issuing state pertaining to the carrying and verification of concealed handgun licenses and permits issued in the respective states.
(b) A holder of a valid permit or license from another state who is authorized to carry a concealed handgun in this state pursuant to provisions of this section is subject to the same laws and restrictions with respect to carrying a concealed handgun as a resident of West Virginia who is so permitted, and must carry the concealed handgun in compliance with the laws of this state.
(c) No license or permit from another state is valid in this state if the holder is or becomes prohibited by law from possessing a firearm.
(d) The West Virginia ATTORNEY GENERAL shall seek to enter into and may execute reciprocity agreements on behalf of the state of West Virginia with states which meet the following standards and requirements:
(1) The standards applied by the other state before issuing a concealed handgun license or permit must be EQUAL TO OR GREATER THAN the standards imposed by this article;
(2) This state's law enforcement officers have continuous access to data bases on the criminal information network, twenty- four hours per day, seven days per week, to verify the continued validity of any license or permit to carry a concealed handgun that has been granted by the issuing state;
(3) The other state agrees to grant the right to carry a concealed handgun to residents of West Virginia who have valid concealed handgun permits issued pursuant to this article in their possession while carrying concealed weapons in that state; and,
(4) The states agree to apprise one another of changes in permitting standards and requirements, to provide for a prompt reexamination of whether any adopted change in licensing or permitting standards negates the states' ability to continue with the reciprocity agreement.
(e) The West Virginia State Police shall maintain a registry of states with which the state of West Virginia has entered into reciprocity agreements on the criminal information network and make the registry available to law-enforcement officers for investigative purposes.
(f) Every twelve months after the effective date of this section, the West Virginia Attorney General shall make written inquiry of the concealed handgun permitting authorities in each other state as to: (i)Whether a West Virginia resident may carry a concealed handgun in their state based upon having a valid West Virginia concealed handgun permit; and (ii) whether a West Virginia resident may carry a concealed handgun in that state based upon having a valid West Virginia concealed handgun permit, pursuant to the laws of that state or by the execution of a valid reciprocity agreement between the states.
(g) The West Virginia State Police shall make available to the public a list of states which have entered into reciprocity agreements with the State of West Virginia.
<<<<<<<



So HB 3074 took the reigns from the Governor and gave them to the Attorney General in regards to reciprocity agreements, but it ALSO removed the language that said standards had to be SIMILAR for reciprocity and replaced it with " EQUAL TO OR GREATER THAN the standards imposed by this article".

In fact, the WVCDL was opposed to it for that very reason (and others apparently) and requested a veto of it in a letter to the Governor (http://www.wvcdl.org/HB_3074_VetoRequestLetter.pdf ):
http://www.wvcdl.org/HB3074_VetoRequest.html

To quote them from their web page (http://www.wvcdl.org/HB3074.html ):
"Proposed W.Va. Code §61-7-6a(d) requires states to pass a 4-part test before they may establish reciprocity with West Virginia. We believe that this test is so strict that either the strict standards set in HB 3074 will not be followed or these standards will be followed and not one state will qualify. In other words, not only will HB 3074 not expand our reciprocity with other states, it will likely cause West Virginia to lose its existing reciprocity with Kentucky and Virginia. To be fair, the effect of this will be merely to leave Kentucky and Virginia residents unable to legally carry concealed handguns in West Virginia, as both states would recognize West Virginia licenses regardless of whether we recognize their licenses. "


So here's what I say to that. After getting a few messages telling me to shut up, stop quoting the law and don't illuminate the fact that we might not meet the standards of WV law or else I'll be to blame for PA losing WV reciprocity, let me just go on record as saying if that happens, it's not my fault, someone took an acceptable standard (similar) and replaced it with (equal to or greater than) and it 'twas not I. That I pointed it is of no real consequence, I didn't create the problem if there is one. I get so tired of being in the middle of this shit. I might post this on PAFOA since most of the messages giving me a hard time came as a result of my posting there. Only one request was polite out of all of them, and that was from Harry Schneider of the PSA. I disagreed with his position and request, but at least he wasn't a total jerk about it.

To which, Andy commented,

Andy comments:

From what you are describing, I don't know how you stomach that PAFOA crowd. What a bunch of jerks you describe. Does anyone really BELIEVE our opponents (i.e., everyone in government) are so unsophisticated that YOU (or I, if I was in your place) would be handing them an epiphany by (e.g.) pointing out inconsistencies between PA and WV law? I can never help wondering where such monstrous egos come from!

Seriously, I don't mind disagreement, but you're blatantly misquoting people (like we claim the MSM does to us all the time) to serve your own agenda. That's bullshit and it's not what I would expect from anyone on this site. Personally, that's about as low as you can get in a debate or discussion, it amounts to an outright lie when you twist and conceal the truth with liberally wordsmithing someone else's statements to smear or impugn their character and make that the focus of the debate. Not only is it, again, ad hominem, it's dishonest and disgusting. I would ask that you try not to do that in the future, I find it highly offensive, even if I'm not the person of interest (which, as others will see when they read further, I actually am).



.....continued.....